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I've been camping and reading this thread on my cell phone, with almost no service to reply. Having arrived back home I am ready to discuss the OP. But not argue back and forth with other forum members.
First, your whole post cries out to me, of someone that is hurting emotionally, spiritually and physically. I have been praying for you, but especially that God will help you through this terrible trial.
First of all, not all disease is demonic, not all disease is caused by overeating or smoking or other causes which could have been avoided. I have quite a few auto-immune diseases, which are genetic in origin and triggered in unknown ways. I was very healthy before asthma, I am an organic vegetarian. I still grow most of my own vegetables and buy local products. I was in shape when I got these diseases - I walked regularly before RA and then I was working out in a gym one day, when I realized the red, swollen hot knee that would not allow me to even leg lift the bar with no weights, was serious.
Even when I got on better meds, after about 7 years, I took up cycling and weight lifting and my heart is in good shape, even though RA can attack the heart. As of now, I have been prayed for, scorned for not getting healed, and I use the doctors to keep my RA and asthma mostly in check. (Along with a few other assorted autoimmune diseases) I also went through years of turning away from God, because I felt he had abandoned me because I was not healed, no matter how much I believed and what all my Word Faith friends told me. That was far worse than any painful physical and debilitating disease - 2 or 3 years in which I did not read my Bible, pray or serve God! But praise the Lord, he used it for good!)
Which brings me to the fact that there are quite a few auto-immune diseases that attack the heart. I would see a rheumatologist you may be able to get on some meds that stop the progression of the disease. But of course, you will have to let go of some very bad theology, in order to use the doctors, which God has provided and that we are so fortunate to have in the Western World.
I'm going to continue in another post. Hopefully the OP will find it and it will be close to this one.
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So the following comes from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.
As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, because that is not what this thread is about.
Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.
If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?
There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:
1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer
2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)
Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.
So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:
1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.
As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!
"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations,a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10
Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:
The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.
Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.
All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.
The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts
a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.
"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with droughtand with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Debt. 28:21-22
It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.
b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)
c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8
The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.
It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."
"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thur referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing seeing the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, because that is not what this thread is about.
Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.
If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?
There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:
1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer
2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)
Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.
So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:
1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.
As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!
"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations,a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10
Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:
The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.
Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.
All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.
The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts
a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.
"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with droughtand with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Debt. 28:21-22
It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.
b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)
c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8
The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.
It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6
While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.
Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)
"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV
This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:
"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."
"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)
The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"
Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)
Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!
"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.
So my point!
Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thur referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing seeing the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.
But what did Isaiah himself intend??
The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.
The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.
As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.
Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.
L
ladylynn
Guest
Faith in Jesus denies what the world shows me and has given me something that can't even be compared. I'm a believer., I must chose to live by faith and not by sight. I must daily chose to "defy" human reason and believe the promises of the Bible instead. Actually., I have no business anymore seeing without the eyes of faith.
The Triumphs of Faith
11 Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].
The Triumphs of Faith
11 Now faith is the assurance (title deed, confirmation) of things hoped for (divinely guaranteed), and the evidence of things not seen [the conviction of their reality—faith comprehends as fact what cannot be experienced by the physical senses].
I'll close with a little more personal testimony. Back in 1998 when I first got painful and debilitating deformities, I had two friends in the health and wealth gospel. One was so obsessed with it, she studied with Kenneth Copeland and became an ordained minister with his organization and started a church which was very well attended. This woman had the gift of evangelism, and did great work - many came to know the Lord.
However, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She had a complete mastectomy, but decided God had healed her and refused the chemo and radiation, which probably would have caught any stray cancer cells, as it did for my sister-in-law who is 4 years cancer free this year. My friend, Nydia, believed and claimed healing. She went to some healing community in the south eastern US and they pronounced her cancer free. 10 months later, I got a call from her son, that she was dead, because the cancer had metastasized, and she died insane from the brain cancer. Not a pretty ending, at all.
The other friend who insisted I needed to claim healing, was struck with an enlarged prostate. He claimed healing, and the agony was so bad, he was raced to the ER, where he was operated on, and has not had a problem since, over 10 years later. He still hangs onto this wrong theology, and when he tells me I can be healed, I just quietly tell him I am not interested in hearing his very wrong and unbiblical theology. He is 87 by the way, and doing fine! I have no doubt God healed him in other circumstances. But he was wise to get medical help, when it was needed.
As for me, after I got over that horrible desert period of my life, and feel so deserted by God and man, and especially condemned by my friends that I was not healed. God called me to seminary and I am now a pastor. My ministry is to the hurting and broken, including those who have been hurt by bad theology.
Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets and hypergrace, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge you to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 50 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
I will be praying God will show you the truth and you will immediately get the medical help you need. Why does God need to heal you, when you can just go to the doctor and get it fixed? He didn't even heal me, when there is no cure for what I have. And I have never been happier or more at peace with God and his will for my life!
Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
However, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She had a complete mastectomy, but decided God had healed her and refused the chemo and radiation, which probably would have caught any stray cancer cells, as it did for my sister-in-law who is 4 years cancer free this year. My friend, Nydia, believed and claimed healing. She went to some healing community in the south eastern US and they pronounced her cancer free. 10 months later, I got a call from her son, that she was dead, because the cancer had metastasized, and she died insane from the brain cancer. Not a pretty ending, at all.
The other friend who insisted I needed to claim healing, was struck with an enlarged prostate. He claimed healing, and the agony was so bad, he was raced to the ER, where he was operated on, and has not had a problem since, over 10 years later. He still hangs onto this wrong theology, and when he tells me I can be healed, I just quietly tell him I am not interested in hearing his very wrong and unbiblical theology. He is 87 by the way, and doing fine! I have no doubt God healed him in other circumstances. But he was wise to get medical help, when it was needed.
As for me, after I got over that horrible desert period of my life, and feel so deserted by God and man, and especially condemned by my friends that I was not healed. God called me to seminary and I am now a pastor. My ministry is to the hurting and broken, including those who have been hurt by bad theology.
Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets and hypergrace, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge you to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 50 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.
I will be praying God will show you the truth and you will immediately get the medical help you need. Why does God need to heal you, when you can just go to the doctor and get it fixed? He didn't even heal me, when there is no cure for what I have. And I have never been happier or more at peace with God and his will for my life!
Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!
"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5
The Lord has nothing to prove to satan though. VVhy would the Lord even entertain the devil? The promises of God are "Yes" and "Amen" in Christ, to this the devil has no jurisdiction because we are in Christ Jesus. VVe are in a covenant with the Lord.
I do like the part of your testimony of the Lord saying He doesn't need you to remind Him of His word, He just wants you to simply believe that He will do as He says.
But Jesus had come to reveal the Father working through Him so that some would believe. He healed instantly in most cases, except when He wished to teach something. NO ONE does that today,
The Apostles continued that work to begin with. But the miracles gradually tailed off.
But you only have to read on and you will find that slowly the miraculous dropped off even more. It was no longer so emphatic.
so Paul had to tell Timothy to heal his stomach by taking wine, and he was uncertain about Epaphroditus.
The early confidence had gone.
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eph610
Guest
An old wise preacher once told me that if I am not walking in any form of adversity in my walk with the Lord, I might want to double check the hand I am holding, because it might not be the hand of Jesus.....
You should read my other post on this thread if you haven't.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...atic-losing-faith-healing-12.html#post2762193
Also, there are many ministries that witness healing on the daily.
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ladylynn
Guest
I don't have time right now to read every post but want to add something very important about healing. Some healing comes just like faith comes. Some 10 fold, some 20 fold some 40 fold some 50 fold, 80 fold 100 fold., and on it goes.
I have seen that the Lord progresses me towards faith and I've seen this to be so with healing too. The enemy seeks to steal the word from me. he seeks to get me to stop believing God is aware of me and that He is interested in my healing., This enemy says things like "God is helping the cancer ridden neighbor and you are not suffering like that so quit expecting healing from Him., quit bothering Him."
This awful enemy will throw not only people's suffering at me but their not suffering at me. he also throws symptoms my way to get my eyes off of Jesus my Healer and Helper. he will try to use my pain against me on a continual basis. he will try to get me ESPECIALLY to compare myself to other people and not seek to walk one on One like I always do with Jesus. he wants to stop that personal relationship at all costs. This enemy seeks to isolate me personally from the grace of Christ Jesus. Using comparisons is a tactic many of us believers fall for. We must not give into these tactics.
If someone is not healed do not believe that person's experiences over the promises of Christ for you. For as many who are not healed there are many more who are. It's not by people's experiences., it's by His promises.
We are saved one on One. Jesus and you. Not Jesus and you and your whole family or your neighbors or your friends . We are made individual by a wise and amazing Creator. He teaches us in our spirit man. We come into this world alone and we go out alone., no other human goes with us. Only God is with us at all times. And that is how He has chosen to deal with us and teach us. Each of us has a personal responsibility to see Jesus and no one can do that for us.
I have seen that the Lord progresses me towards faith and I've seen this to be so with healing too. The enemy seeks to steal the word from me. he seeks to get me to stop believing God is aware of me and that He is interested in my healing., This enemy says things like "God is helping the cancer ridden neighbor and you are not suffering like that so quit expecting healing from Him., quit bothering Him."
This awful enemy will throw not only people's suffering at me but their not suffering at me. he also throws symptoms my way to get my eyes off of Jesus my Healer and Helper. he will try to use my pain against me on a continual basis. he will try to get me ESPECIALLY to compare myself to other people and not seek to walk one on One like I always do with Jesus. he wants to stop that personal relationship at all costs. This enemy seeks to isolate me personally from the grace of Christ Jesus. Using comparisons is a tactic many of us believers fall for. We must not give into these tactics.
If someone is not healed do not believe that person's experiences over the promises of Christ for you. For as many who are not healed there are many more who are. It's not by people's experiences., it's by His promises.
We are saved one on One. Jesus and you. Not Jesus and you and your whole family or your neighbors or your friends . We are made individual by a wise and amazing Creator. He teaches us in our spirit man. We come into this world alone and we go out alone., no other human goes with us. Only God is with us at all times. And that is how He has chosen to deal with us and teach us. Each of us has a personal responsibility to see Jesus and no one can do that for us.
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Have you not determined already that the adversity you face is experienced only because you expect it? VVhat Job feared came upon him, right? VVe have to guard our beliefs and make sure they are in line with God's word. Stand upon the truth and His providence, in all areas.
But I believed them. But faith did not produce God's activity.
But I believed them. But faith did not produce God's activity.
I stepped out in faith but God did not hear me.
he is faithful to HIS promises. but not to what you like to think of as His promises.
you depend on careless and false interpretation of a few scriptures not on GOD;s promises,
well now you have the chance to prove otherwise. I am waiting (unless you're a charlatan)
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UnderGrace
Guest
I am talking about present day not what Jesus did when He walked this earth.
I highly, highly encourage you to read post #243 by Angela53510
When we are apart from the right teaching of scripture we can fall for all kinds of distortions.
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eph610
Guest
Ben,
I believe in and have witnessed sings, wonders and miracles. I believe in the gifts and the 5 fold ministry.
I do not believe we are untouchable as you and your communicated knowledge promote.
Have you ever walked through personal health Crisis? You come across as having vast amounts of Bible communicated knowledge with no real practice to your preach.
I received financial blessing through my health Crisis and my income was castrated to only 40% of what I was making. I gave out of the abundance of what I had and it was not close to what you would describe as a 10% tithe or even a Tithe. I gave what God told me to give and according to the means I had.
Now according to you I should be cursed and not blessed, but guess what? I reaped huge favor and blessings out of giving through a cheerful heart and it was not even 10% of what I was given or 10% of my wife's pay.....Please explain this away for me.
VVhen did I ever insinuate that you should be cursed and not blessed? Are you reading my posts? lol
Give and you shall receive, it doesn't mention a percent here. Yes, there is a tithe, but one's giving and the reciprocity from such giving is not dependent upon the percent given. There is a verse in proverbs that speaks of giving to the poor is like lending to the Lord and He shall repay you. Now, scripture is clear about sowing bountifully and sparingly, that we cannot ignore. I am not sure what you thought you read in my post, but it most definitely was not to say you should be cursed.
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eph610
Guest
VVhen did I ever insinuate that you should be cursed and not blessed? Are you reading my posts? lol
Give and you shall receive, it doesn't mention a percent here. Yes, there is a tithe, but one's giving and the reciprocity from such giving is not dependent upon the percent given. There is a verse in proverbs that speaks of giving to the poor is like lending to the Lord and He shall repay you. Now, scripture is clear about sowing bountifully and sparingly, that we cannot ignore. I am not sure what you thought you read in my post, but it most definitely was not to say you should be cursed.
Maybe I am gun shy with some of the types of WOF folks. You said Tithe and I unfairly assumed.
Forgive me brother for assuming.
I am simply quoting Scripture. You can argue with the Author.
I also believe people are new creations. Do you? Why do they struggle with sin then?
I also people are set free to love. Why do some struggle with anger, addictiins, etc. Did Jesus not pay for them? Did Jesus not pay for their freedom?
I believe God desires all to be saved. But not all are. Why? Did Jesus not pay the price for all?
I chose to believe Scripture over my experiences and my eyeballs.
I chose to believe I am a WHOSOEVER and that I am called to do His works and greater. You get to choose for you. I've seen many miracles, but also seen many losses. I've chosen to believe, you get to choose. I will no longer force my ways on anyone else, only those who desire spiritual gifts while pursuing love will I share with.
I am close to leaving this forum, but I've enjoyed chatting and discussing with you. In heaven we will get to discuss the greatness of our Lord.
You're definitely a seeker of God, one of the greatest I've had the privilege to meet here. May the grace you carry increase that you might draw more into the knowledge of Christ. And tge faith we live by daily.
QUOTE=UnderGrace;2762189]
And what if it does not? What if you die instead?
This is a quite a nice little schema that has been built by some preachers on the world stage, however, I have seen many faithful servants with great faith in the Lord die from disease and injury.
Why is there this need to deny reality it does not diminish God and His love you know? (Rhetorical question)
[/QUOTE]
I also believe people are new creations. Do you? Why do they struggle with sin then?
I also people are set free to love. Why do some struggle with anger, addictiins, etc. Did Jesus not pay for them? Did Jesus not pay for their freedom?
I believe God desires all to be saved. But not all are. Why? Did Jesus not pay the price for all?
I chose to believe Scripture over my experiences and my eyeballs.
I chose to believe I am a WHOSOEVER and that I am called to do His works and greater. You get to choose for you. I've seen many miracles, but also seen many losses. I've chosen to believe, you get to choose. I will no longer force my ways on anyone else, only those who desire spiritual gifts while pursuing love will I share with.
I am close to leaving this forum, but I've enjoyed chatting and discussing with you. In heaven we will get to discuss the greatness of our Lord.
You're definitely a seeker of God, one of the greatest I've had the privilege to meet here. May the grace you carry increase that you might draw more into the knowledge of Christ. And tge faith we live by daily.
QUOTE=UnderGrace;2762189]
And what if it does not? What if you die instead?
This is a quite a nice little schema that has been built by some preachers on the world stage, however, I have seen many faithful servants with great faith in the Lord die from disease and injury.
Why is there this need to deny reality it does not diminish God and His love you know? (Rhetorical question)
[/QUOTE]
I lost my mother to Cancer. And the hospital e worker told me what the enemy meant for evil God will use for good. And I believed her. I gave up my extremely worldly ways. And watched God turn it all for good. And I have been blessed to see that cursed disease leave people's bodies after prayer. Among many others. Truly what the enemy meant for my evil God has turned for His Good and I'm just getting started. Glory to His Name THE Author of Life!!!! The Knowledge of His glory WILL cover this Earth! And the Spirit of God is being poured out on ALL flesh. AND THIS Gospel Of THE Kingdom will be preached to the ends of the Earth. Bless you and may God continually work good news in your life that you will be an encounter of His Love. Eph 3:17-21.
