Charismatic - Losing Faith (Healing)

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Ed_4325

Guest
#1
I was diagnosed with heart disease and told I needed bypass surgery 4.5 years ago. I started going to a charismatic/Kenneth E Hagin-like church a few months after my diagnosis. They believe strongly in laying hands on people and healing.

I went up for healing...believed that I received it...testified to being healed for years...got into leadership...and even left my job to be on staff. A few months ago I started having chest pains, after a series of doctor visits and another angiogram my heart has gotten worse.

I'm fighting to believe all that I've learned...but I'm definitely doubting divine healing...what I REALLY don't like...is it's causing me to doubt almost everything I hear or read. I find myself rolling my eyes at testimonies or people encouraging others with scripture or sayings. Any time I hear a charismatic preacher on tv or YouTube I question what they say. I feel like I'm losing my faith in God. He has to be real.

I really need someone who knows their charismatic apologetics. Please don't waste my time or yours if all you have to chime in with is a bible verse with a short saying attached to it like "John 10:10 the enemy is just trying to kill you"

I need something way solid and explained in detail. Please. Thank you so much!
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#2
This will cause a crapstorm of debate, but step one, stop listening to Kenneth Hagin and his new age teachings and anyone like him. The majority of televangelists, nearly all, are prosperity teachers. This circles around a new age belief system wrapped in a bible wrapper. One of the biggest deceptions in the church for 2 decades. And Hagin is one of the, if not the, central figure in all of it.
I left the charismatic church years ago. I left the guilt, the frequent sense of failure and loss, the constant doubt and questions i faced, the frustration... left it all behind. Once i did i felt closer to God than i had in years, i felt less condemnation, less doubt. Less guilt.

Now let the battle begin.
 
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Ed_4325

Guest
#3
Agreed - I'm sure this will bring lively discussion. And I see a LOT of people that have your same story because they're still poor, still sick, still just messed up in general...and what worries me is that...I feel called to teach and preach...and honestly...most everything Hagin says "sounds" like God to me...I just don't want to be causing people to fall away...so I need to settle this.
 
R

Rita47

Guest
#4
Well I was attending to some charismatic meetings belleving that only by attending there and praying I will become healthy and strong..

At fist meeting I saw a lot of people happy, signing and dancing. It was also amazing when people started talking by Holy Spirit. I was waiting for the moment, someone will directly start talking to me, what's God will speak exactly to me. But it never happen.. I feel it was all in group, no individual prayers. Everyone was only happy and enjoying the emotions.

I wanted go there and get healthy.. I have acnes, dark eye circles, some hormonal problems, and some other sicknesses.. People pray above my head few times.. and nothing happen. I just started going to doctors and heal normally...

I also didn't like the idea of Evangelisation on streets. Going out with the transparents, singing on the street, and talking with strangers about God. I realise fast it's not something for me. That time my faith was still small, and I didn't feel good to do such stuff...

I realise I feel more happy, when I can meet God individual in prayers in everyday life. I don't need to always be with people to praise the God.
 
M

Mike73

Guest
#5
Hi - I came from a Charismatic background and I can say truthfully there are many flaws in the what I experienced of Charismatic theology mostly because of scriptures taken out of context.

Hagin - is a fraud - as are all of the word of faith movement. If you went to a false teacher who doesn't know God and then asked this fraud to "pray" to God for you. Of course God won't endorse such a man by moving on his behalf. These hucksters never tell you to get medical verification of their laying on of hands - just in case they get exposed as the frauds they in fact are.

No one has the gift of healing in the way the Apostles had BUT God does heal on a case by case basis of that I am sure.

I also know that God can decide to heal or not to heal according to his divine understanding and will.

The whole if you step out in "faith" - you will definitely receive healing is not Biblical. It is God's prerogative and prayer from a false teacher will always be rejected.

Paul had a thorn in the flesh which God didn't fix - what exactly the thorn in the flesh was is not clear. God simply stated that His grace was sufficient.

There is also a lot of pressure on a person to say that they have been healed whether or not it has happened because it is implied that if you didn't get healed you are somehow faithless. I know because I have seen this pressure tactic first hand.

Having said all this I know of two times God has miraculously healed. There is always a reason/purpose for the healing and the healing always imparts understanding about the character or nature of God. Once for me - a month after I got saved. The understanding I received was what unmerited forgiveness and unconditional love meant in practice. My ailment was because of my sinful lifestyle and a just punishment. My healing was medically verified shortly after the healing. My sinful drunkenness left my body in toxic shock - which manifested itself as severe food allergies and gastric problems, rashes, swelling and other symptoms.

On the other hand my dog suffered a completely crushed and shattered foreleg when she was attacked by a man with a steel bar and God healed her without any medical intervention. Again the lesson was to show me that God was merciful, kind and completely worthy of our fullest trust in Him - whatever situation I had in my life - God was actively involved and available.

There have been times when I have prayed alone and corporately and seen God answer.

There have been times I have prayed alone or corporately and not received what I asked for.

Things that help with prayer getting answered.

Tell God that you love Him and are grateful for your Salvation - whatever else happens you trust Him with your life and soul.

Understand that what you are asking for is granted out of God's unmerited mercy and providence. It is not because you are entitled to it.

Spend quality time in prayer and fellowship with God - don't just start prayer when a crisis comes along or God will use crisis after to spend time more time with you :p

An attitude of gratitude based on "you didn't deserve Salvation" but you were given it freely - You have been rescued from eternal torment in Hell and that alone is more than enough! Anything God does beyond salvation to you or gives you is for your betterment - even if you don't understand it or the circumstances seem to indicate the opposite by your understanding.

Be truthful with God, confess and forsake hidden sin. God while you are praying will always let you know what sin needs repenting with that soft heart felt voice.

Ask in a way that lets God know what you would like but submit to whatever God decides with humble gratitude.

Always assume that God has a better way of answering you prayer than you could think of and ask Him to intervene with what He thinks is the best way to resolve the situation. Give God room to work His will and show His Majesty.

If you don't get what you want DO NOT BE CHILDISH and threaten to walk away from Him - this is a sure sign that you did not know Him to begin with.

God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

I hope what follows helps you determine for yourself what scriptures are used rightly or not by Charismatics.

Also most of Charismatic error in theology is because they take scripture out of context.

Context being who is God talking about or too (Jews, Christian's, Sinners or everyone). Charismatics like to claim a lot of the promises God made exclusively to the Jews for themselves.

The Bible finishes talking about a subject, application or to a particular class of people before it changes to another subject, application or class of people. It doesn't jump back and forth mixing subjects applications or the people it talking to or about - so every verse has the same subject, application and is for a particular class of people until a new context is given and it doesn't jump back and forth.

This is the simplest way to determine exactly whether or not a scripture is being used correctly.
 
M

Mike73

Guest
#6
Hi Rita47 - I say this out of and with the deepest respect and concern for you - but what you saw wasn't the reason for being a Christian. Visit The Way of the Master and read why you must be saved - it really makes sense of why Jesus needed to be crucified. Healing is secondary to your Salvation and Salvation comes via a very strict process of brokenness over sin, repentance and trust in Jesus. Very few people find Salvation but it is really the most important Event in a person life. The things you listed as being the shortcomings of your life (the acne, hormiones etc) might be your priorities now but will fade to nothing in comparison with the joy, peace and contentment that comes with true Salvation.
 
L

ladylynn

Guest
#7
I'm very sorry you guys are having problems in life. I very much understand. I've been there many times and it's a horrible place. Jesus told us in this life we will have tribulation (our enemy will come at us) but to be of good cheer since He has over come the world.

One of the things I've noticed that all us believers have in common when questions arise about God is does He really love me? Is He interested in me individually? Does He care what I think? How I think? Does He really love me? Enough to give me peace and rest and consolation? All "YES" to those questions.

He doesn't want our hearts to be troubled by anything. So much so that He instructs us to cast every care on Him. I've found that His grace has flowed into my life when I came to that understanding. I'm not to be troubled that is His instruction.

The Bible says that He faithfully supplies His grace into every area of our lives as believers. His love is shed abroad in our hearts and lives. But I've finally come to notice that "flowing" stopped when I shut it off by my worry. It's not because of Him., but because of me.

Jesus told us that He has given us His peace "MY PEACE I GIVE YOU" John 14:27 "that peace is about wellness, wholeness, completeness as well as peace of heart and mind." It's not like the world gives. It's supernatural.

For myself I've seen that it's my responsibility to guard my own heart. Proverbs 4:23
"Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it." So we are supposed to guard it above all else. No one else can do that for me. And the Lord promises if I guard my heart, He will take care of the rest., and He has. I just read about this very thing this morning while having coffee.

"When we decide to "let not" our hearts be troubled or afraid, the "righteousness" and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit starts flowing into our hearts in that familiar way. And that is actually when we ARE seeking first the kingdom of God., and His righteousness....and all those things on the outside that we need will be added to us." (Matt.6:33)

That is my witness to His faithfulness this morning. God's Word is a powerful tool in being able to do this. When I say it and walk in it as I work and sleep it gets into me and is a part of what I'm doing and thinking.

I have to refuse to worry and that is not letting my heart be troubled. And it's not something I do without encouragements from Him all along the way. He is right there when I am afraid and when I am weak. I have heard it preached and seen it happen in my own life that when I am bothered and worried in certain areas; that is where the enemy can get at me. I'm finding for my own walk with Jesus that He is faithful to take care of it when I stop taking care of it.

Believing that God really loves me is the major-ist step I've found. Believing His Word that says in 1John 4:18 So let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. I testify that is when He actually does flow into my life the grace needed to carry and sustain me.

Also, I see how really vitally important it is in order to guard my heart and for my well being to stay., and in the development of my faith I have to be listening to the Bible preached., reading it., hearing it all day taking opportunity when and while in the car and at work. Before bed at night before I drift off to sleep. Watching it on tv when I'm working around my house., when I'm on the computer., putting on messages that testify to the faithfulness of Christ. It doesn't matter if we have tons of reasons for worry (we all do) He has told us the way to get through is to guard our hearts and let NOT our hearts be troubled. He loves us and will follow through.


 
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popeye

Guest
#8
Oh wow,you remind me of me.

I have been in your situation for sure. I just recently told God that my situation is damaging my faith.

There is a battle. The battlefield is the mind. Most of the responses you will get here are mental,from mental salvation people.

They will tell you what some ridiculous teacher said. "Hagin is a fraud",or some cessationists baloney,or something failed concerning a miracle,therefore half the bible is a fraud.

OK,lets tune out the jokers,and serve up some steak.

God left us power. He left us with faith. Tiny faith so powerful it Rios mountains out and throws them a thousand miles to the sea.

If you let him,God will blow that situational,circumstantial mess out of you.

There never was,and never will be a circumstance where sickness or any intruder could overpower Jesus.

Get busy. Remove every open door. No more TV. Go to eBay and purchase the bible on DVD,read by Alexander Scorby. 72 hours of nonstop bible. It even restarts by itself. I can hear mine playing right now.

Go to all you have wronged,and apologise,and give them some money or something.
Now you are getting somewhere.

What you have in your lap is a test.

You will not fix the problem till you know it's root,and how to attack it. The Holy Ghost knows what is next. I am merely getting you started.

You will win. I know that for a fact. But you gotta listen. You are in college. When you pass this big test,you will receive authority.

Look,you are being stalked. Your verse is mat 18:18,19.
Like riding a bronco,you gotta stay with him.Heaven is screaming at you to do all the no brainers.
"STAY WITH HIM"
"RIDE EM"
"LEAN BACK,DIG THOSE SPURS IN"
"THROW THAT LEFT HAND UP"
"GRAB THAT ROPE OF FAITH"
"HANG ON"
"DO THE TINGS YOU KNOW TO DO"
"RIDE HIM"
"GET OUT OF YOUR MIND"
"WORSHIP"
"GET IN THE SPIRIT"
"PETITION YOUR CASE BEFORE THE THRONE"
" READ THE PARABLE ABOUT THE GUY THAT BY PERSISTSNCE BEAT HIS NEIGHBORS DOOR DOWN TILL HE GOT WHAT HE CAME FOR"
"TURN THAT BIBLE TAPE LOUDER,AND FILL YOUR HOUSE WITH THAT FRAGRANCE"
"INVOKE THE PROPHETIC"
"PROPHECY OVER YOUR HEALTH"





Don't worry,that thing ain't gonna get you.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#9
ALL MIRACLES,ALL POWER,ALL VIRTUE,ALL HEALTH,....

IT ALL COMES FROM THE ANOINTING.
FROM POWER
FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT.

THAT IS THE STRATEGY.

YOU(AND ME) GET SO ON FIRE,SO BLOWN OUT FOR JESUS THAT ANYTHING TOUCHING YOU IS BURNED UP.

GUESS WHAT?
IT WORKS EVERYTIME.
THE DEVIL CAN NOT WIN. WE WIN
WE WIN EVERY SINGLE TIME.

THAT IS PSALM 91


OH NO,PS 91 has two conditions

Oh man,don't you just hate that?

We gotta do it his way?

Pass the test. Take the prize,receive your authority.

Divorce this world,let all but Jesus and your walk be damned,and enjoy the ride,
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
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#10
I was diagnosed with heart disease and told I needed bypass surgery 4.5 years ago. I started going to a charismatic/Kenneth E Hagin-like church a few months after my diagnosis. They believe strongly in laying hands on people and healing.

I went up for healing...believed that I received it...testified to being healed for years...got into leadership...and even left my job to be on staff. A few months ago I started having chest pains, after a series of doctor visits and another angiogram my heart has gotten worse.

I'm fighting to believe all that I've learned...but I'm definitely doubting divine healing...what I REALLY don't like...is it's causing me to doubt almost everything I hear or read. I find myself rolling my eyes at testimonies or people encouraging others with scripture or sayings. Any time I hear a charismatic preacher on tv or YouTube I question what they say. I feel like I'm losing my faith in God. He has to be real.

I really need someone who knows their charismatic apologetics. Please don't waste my time or yours if all you have to chime in with is a bible verse with a short saying attached to it like "John 10:10 the enemy is just trying to kill you"

I need something way solid and explained in detail. Please. Thank you so much!
Maybe I read this wrong, but you are losing your faith in God because going to a certain type of church didn't heal you?

Do you realize that other than that one short mention of God, that was the only time any thought of Him actually being the healer might have been approached in your post?

We can be healed by Jesus in a bowling alley, a 7/11, or a Catholic Cathedral. I suspect you might be depending on the wrong "healer."

(And what the Hell are "Charismatic Apologetics")
 
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Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#11
I went up for healing...believed that I received it...testified to being healed for years...got into leadership...and even left my job to be on staff. !
Why didn't you return to your doctor and have another angiogram performed once you believed you received your healing?

Since you didn't make any reference to the doctor's recommendation other than this last angiogram show more damage, did they indicate whether or not bypass surgery is still an option at this point or did they put you on a heart transplant list?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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#12
Hi Ed .

Sorry to hear of your great tribulation .

I would suggest you keep of the faith. and remember doubt is not the opposite of faith, unbelief( no faith in God is)And I hope you realize I believe you have been given an understanding not to walk by experience called, walking by sight, the cause of the fall in the garden.

Ultimately God is not served and therefore does not heal by human hands. He has no needs but satisfies all. He uses physical healing as parables to show the unseen hand of God, but they are never to the end of the matter. But simply parables to give us the spiritual understanding hid from natural man without the Spirit of Christ. .

The laying on of hands is another of the ceremonial laws that was required as shadow pointing to one not seen who heals us eternally.( The will of God). Just as in the same way the goat represents Christ, the suffering savoir, announcing the gospel of Christ beforehand..

Leviticus 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

But there is always a flip side after the one who mimics God, the father of lies, the god of this world. Satan would have the believer to believe the lie that we walk by experiences (walk by sight) what we see outwardly

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Act 8:17

I find Interesting as side note that the paraphrasers used the word worship as a therapeutical term in regard to the Greek word “therapeuo” used only once in the scriptures.

Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Strongs lexicon 2323 therapeuo {ther-ap-yoo'-o} from the same as 2324; TDNT - 3:128,331; v
AV - heal 38, cure 5, worship 1; 44 1) to serve, do service 2) to heal, cure, restore to health
 
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popeye

Guest
#13
Without miracles,we are serving a powerless God.

We are at the mercy of men,their corruption,the world and storms of life,and the devil and his demons.

My God still does miracles. He never stopped.

We stopped.

We measure men by their wealth,knowledge,success,authority,appearance,etc.

God measures a man by faith.

It is said God will pass over a thousand people to get to the man of faith.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#14
May I never be touched by that powerless mess.

Thank you Jesus for your power. Thank You for the HOLY SPIRIT.
 
Aug 18, 2016
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#15
Hi Ed

I am a new member also. I am sorry for your condition. So far, have you received the type of information you requested?
 
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psalm6819

Guest
#16
Hi Ed,

I'm praying for you. I've seen people healed and people not healed. I don't lay the fault with God, I never do. He is a good God and loves us.

He gave us Jesus, why would He deny us healing? Sometimes we shoot ourselves in the foot, we claim healing but then whine and moan about our pain....it negates our confession of healing

For some, God does heal thru doctors but we know God wants us well...Isaiah 53, Psalm 103
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#17
I was diagnosed with heart disease and told I needed bypass surgery 4.5 years ago. I started going to a charismatic/Kenneth E Hagin-like church a few months after my diagnosis. They believe strongly in laying hands on people and healing.

I went up for healing...believed that I received it...testified to being healed for years...got into leadership...and even left my job to be on staff. A few months ago I started having chest pains, after a series of doctor visits and another angiogram my heart has gotten worse.

I'm fighting to believe all that I've learned...but I'm definitely doubting divine healing...what I REALLY don't like...is it's causing me to doubt almost everything I hear or read. I find myself rolling my eyes at testimonies or people encouraging others with scripture or sayings. Any time I hear a charismatic preacher on tv or YouTube I question what they say. I feel like I'm losing my faith in God. He has to be real.

I really need someone who knows their charismatic apologetics. Please don't waste my time or yours if all you have to chime in with is a bible verse with a short saying attached to it like "John 10:10 the enemy is just trying to kill you"

I need something way solid and explained in detail. Please. Thank you so much!
God will not be offended if you go to a doctor and receive medical treatment appropriate to your condition.

Consider it to be akin to Paul telling Timothy to take a little wine for his stomachs sake.

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
859
113
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#18
In my church some people receive divine healing and others don't. My faith in God, however, remains unshaken.
 
May 28, 2016
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#19
I was diagnosed with heart disease and told I needed bypass surgery 4.5 years ago. I started going to a charismatic/Kenneth E Hagin-like church a few months after my diagnosis. They believe strongly in laying hands on people and healing.

I went up for healing...believed that I received it...testified to being healed for years...got into leadership...and even left my job to be on staff. A few months ago I started having chest pains, after a series of doctor visits and another angiogram my heart has gotten worse.

I'm fighting to believe all that I've learned...but I'm definitely doubting divine healing...what I REALLY don't like...is it's causing me to doubt almost everything I hear or read. I find myself rolling my eyes at testimonies or people encouraging others with scripture or sayings. Any time I hear a charismatic preacher on tv or YouTube I question what they say. I feel like I'm losing my faith in God. He has to be real.

I really need someone who knows their charismatic apologetics. Please don't waste my time or yours if all you have to chime in with is a bible verse with a short saying attached to it like "John 10:10 the enemy is just trying to kill you"

I need something way solid and explained in detail. Please. Thank you so much!
May I ask you, Have you received the Holy Spirit since you have believed ? The rebirth of the Spirit? I can tell you with absolute certainty that God does heal. We must always remember that there is a spiritual battle raging among us right now and fighting against us. Jesus said that some kinds of evil spirits(Which includes illnesses) does not come out but by praying and fasting(abstaining from food for a time). We must also examine our hearts where it is standing. Sin and a crooked heart also leads to sickness and disease. We should also beware of the company we keep. Ungodly people may have the hosts of hell in them or following them in their lives. Paul warned about being unequally yoked with unbelievers and about careless laying on of hands. Also Jesus talked about that the tormentors being released upon people who lack mercy have unforgiveness in their heart. Living Holy lives in accordance with the Word of God and being around like minded people where the gift of healing is and where you can also receive deliverance as much and often possible would be my best advice I think, and praying.
 
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Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
5,216
1,620
113
#20
I was diagnosed with heart disease and told I needed bypass surgery 4.5 years ago. I started going to a charismatic/Kenneth E Hagin-like church a few months after my diagnosis. They believe strongly in laying hands on people and healing.

I went up for healing...believed that I received it...testified to being healed for years...got into leadership...and even left my job to be on staff. A few months ago I started having chest pains, after a series of doctor visits and another angiogram my heart has gotten worse.

I'm fighting to believe all that I've learned...but I'm definitely doubting divine healing...what I REALLY don't like...is it's causing me to doubt almost everything I hear or read. I find myself rolling my eyes at testimonies or people encouraging others with scripture or sayings. Any time I hear a charismatic preacher on tv or YouTube I question what they say. I feel like I'm losing my faith in God. He has to be real.

I really need someone who knows their charismatic apologetics. Please don't waste my time or yours if all you have to chime in with is a bible verse with a short saying attached to it like "John 10:10 the enemy is just trying to kill you"

I need something way solid and explained in detail. Please. Thank you so much!
I knew something was wrong for more than a year, but in my own stubbornness, I almost let God's prodding me go unnoticed. I hope this will help.

On December 11, 2010, my Cardiologist told me that my left main artery was 95% blocked just above the first branch from the aorta, and the branch below the blockage was 90% blocked. He said that I needed immediate surgery. I asked him if we could wait until after Christmas. His exact words were "Billy, you don't understand, you won't make it until Christmas. I told him that I wanted one day to prepare. According to James 5:14, "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord." I called on the elders of my church. The next day I entered the operating room fully confident that God had provided me with the surgeon who would heal me. Shortly after I left the OR I crashed. I had a severe kidney infection that had resulted in kidney failure (both kidneys) and I was in a comma. I woke up in the CCU on Christmas eve. God had answered the prayers of the elders, my family, the care team, and especially the surgical team. I thank God for making me whole again.

Divine healing comes in many packages. The doctor who diagnosed your condition was sent to you be God. God has given you 4.5 years instead of one day to decide. Call on the elders of your church. Ask them to pray over you and anoint you with oil. God is already speaking to you. Listen for God's answer.

During our most difficult times, God is just a prayer away.