Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[reneweddaybyday]

The question I am asking is:

Do you believe it is possible for a born again believer (one who has been sealed with that holy spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession – Eph 1:13-14) to become un-born (or un-sealed) before the redemption of the purchased possession?

I believe such a person can spiritually die by not persevering in the faith. Unborn is a nonsensical term IMO.

k.

According to Eph 1:13-14 we have been sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

until

the redemption of the purchased possession

Apparently you believe a born again believer can unseal him/herself before the redemption of the purchased possession.

I do not believe a born again one can do that.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I would never dispute that no one can be snatched out of God's hand by any means ...

But when did God remove our free-will?

Is there a verse I missed that says we become prisoners and hostage to God?

We still have free will and if we choose to leave we can ...

I believe a born again one can walk according to the world and suffer loss as shown in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15:

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And


I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you protect them from the evil one. John 17:15

Jude 1:

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, and this is because we must willfully and consciously throw it away. We cannot fall off the ship. We must jump.

When the prodigal son went and obtained the portion of goods that his father had divided to him and wasted his substance with riotous living (Luke 15:12,13), he was still his father’s child.

He did not become the child of another father.

He joined himself to a citizen of that country (Luke 15:15) but he did not become a child of that citizen. He was still the son of his father.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Do you believe that God forsakes those who fall victim to those who speak lies in hypocrisy?

The Lord is not willing that any should perish, and he gives people ample warnings and time to repent, but some will just not listen, and will harden their hearts to the truth and be led forth to destruction by workers of iniquity.

Matthew 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

[oyster67]

Here is a guy explaining it out....we should never take obscure scriptures out of context - especially if they "seem" at first glance to contradict the abundance of very clear scriptures that say we are secure in Christ. " No one can pluck them out of My or the Father's hand"

[video=youtube;FLcy0hlnqMM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLcy0hlnqMM[/video]

Enlightenment, Tasting, Participating possible for one who has not received salvation? This man says yes, I say no.

I completely agree with you that no one can pluck us out of our Father's hand. I love you and look forward to seeing you in heaven because I have purposed in my heart that I will never leave and forsake the One who has loved me enough to die for me. I believe we are both completely sold out for Jesus and that is what matters most.

 

[Grace777x70]

Enlightenment, Tasting, Participating possible for one who has not received salvation? This man says yes, I say no.

I completely agree with you that no one can pluck us out of our Father's hand. I love you and look forward to seeing you in heaven because I have purposed in my heart that I will never leave and forsake the One who has loved me enough to die for me. I believe we are both completely sold out for Jesus and that is what matters most.

Amen...we have both found the Pearl of great price and He is in us! ( this goes with your oyster name. ) Bless you brother!

 

[UnderGrace]

I would never dispute that no one can be snatched out of God's hand by any means ...

But when did God remove our free-will?

Is there a verse I missed that says we become prisoners and hostage to God?

We still have free will and if we choose to leave we can ...

Our will does not give us eternal life... and our will cannot take it away either.

The Gospel of St John tells us one receives eternal life by believing upon God’s Son and His redemptive work for us thereby becoming born again.

Then you may ask well can one stop believing.

Scripture tells us we are justified, and regenerated and declared righteous by God when we believe in that redemptive work…this work puts us in a different legal standing if you will with God because we are born again.

If a person stops believing, then does that person become unregenerate if it is God who regenerated them in the first place?

Does God switch the person back to his old, unregenerate, sinful nature.

Does God do that? Does God change people into sinners? I have never read of one instance in scripture where God changed someone into a sinner.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you believe that God forsakes those who fall victim to those who speak lies in hypocrisy?

The Lord is not willing that any should perish, and he gives people ample warnings and time to repent, but some will just not listen, and will harden their hearts to the truth and be led forth to destruction by workers of iniquity.

Matthew 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

The only ones that fall into the ditch are the ones which have not been planted by Father as shown in the verse preceding the one you have quoted ---

Matthew 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.


The believer spoken of in Heb 6:4-6 has already repented, received salvation, and is born again. Once we are born again, we cannot repent unto salvation again. We've already received salvation. If we stumble/fall, we are to confess to Father and be restored to fellowship (as opposed to sonship). But to think that we can be born again over and over is to crucify to [ourselves] the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame (Heb 6:6). There is a difference between sonship and fellowship.

 

[Katy-follower]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

Take a read of this! I'm quoting myself, to add something else that precedes this scripture.

The subject is spiritual immaturity ......



Chapter 5:12-14: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


V1-3: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits"

After this comes verse 4 in my quote: "For it is impossible..." (the "for" being a conclusion)

Connection here between elementary principles, the going on and on again about the foundation of repentance...... and then it goes on to confirm an elementary principle that I mentioned in my quote - the impossibility of being saved, unsaved, then saved again (impossible to be renewed again when already renewed) - this is elementary!!

Can anyone else see all of this. He is talking to believers here.

So yes - eternal security is an elementary principle!!!!!!!!

 

[Katy-follower]

It means where one has the right to live. US citizens living in another country are not living in the US.

You're always a citizen though. You may decide to go some place else, but you don't lose your citizenship.

It's not like a temporary residency, which can be taken away.

 

[crossnote]

you already know where I stand on this topic by the likes I have given. I will only add one of my favorite verses regarding the topic...

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
(Rom 5:10)

It really is His work.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The believer spoken of in Heb 6:4-6 has already repented, received salvation, and is born again. Once we are born again, we cannot repent unto salvation again. We've already received salvation. If we stumble/fall, we are to confess to Father and be restored to fellowship (as opposed to sonship). But to think that we can be born again over and over is to crucify to [ourselves] the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame (Heb 6:6). There is a difference between sonship and fellowship.

There is a difference between a slip up and a complete falling away from the faith. One who falls away from the faith is one who does not repent of ongoing sin and return back to the Lord, but has fallen away completely and cannot be renewed again. Those who believe in OSAS doctrine will try to put a twist on it's meaning but it is a very clear warning of how yes, one can fall away from the faith and be lost.

Hebrews 6:4-8[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[Katy-follower]

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

As Crossnote mentioned to me - Verse 9: "But, beloved (believers), we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner"

Not to mention, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.... and it's the tares that are burnt.


But context with my other post here --> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/138679-hebrews-6-4-6-not-seems-5.html#post2697231 .... which speaks of spiritual immaturity (believers) about the basic principles (such as eternal security, since it is mentioned as one of them)

 

[ladylynn]

No one is the righteousness of GOD but Christ. We have imputed righteousness, and choose to either walk righteously, or not. Those who do not, will not inherit the kingdom.

Interesting....when we were born in Adam.,having done no good or evil., his sin was imputed to us and that was powerful enough to send everyone to hell. (that imputation of sin)

BUT.... when Jesus Christ gave His imputed righteousness to us as sons at our new birth., we have to 'do' something to make the imputation stick???? So., are you saying Adam's sinfulness imputed on to mankind was MORE powerful than Jesus imputed righteousness??

 

[ladylynn]

Our will does not give us eternal life... and our will cannot take it away either.

The Gospel of St John tells us one receives eternal life by believing upon God’s Son and His redemptive work for us thereby becoming born again.

Then you may ask well can one stop believing.

Scripture tells us we are justified, and regenerated and declared righteous by God when we believe in that redemptive work…this work puts us in a different legal standing if you will with God because we are born again.

If a person stops believing, then does that person become unregenerate if it is God who regenerated them in the first place?

Does God switch the person back to his old, unregenerate, sinful nature.

Does God do that? Does God change people into sinners? I have never read of one instance in scripture where God changed someone into a sinner.

Good words UnderGrace!! AND; since Jesus is the "ONE" the "GIVER" who specifically came to GIVE life., how could He go against His own nature and take it back? Then giving instead "death" ? No No, Never. satan is the one who comes to kill., steal and destroy. Jesus came that we might have LIFE and that MORE ABUNDANTLY!!! If people would just take Him at His Word, they would have so much peace and joy the Holy Spirit would come like rivers of living water flowing out of their inner most being!

 

[FreeNChrist]

There is a difference between a slip up and a complete falling away from the faith. One who falls away from the faith is one who does not repent of ongoing sin and return back to the Lord, but has fallen away completely and cannot be renewed again. Those who believe in OSAS doctrine will try to put a twist on it's meaning but it is a very clear warning of how yes, one can fall away from the faith and be lost.

Hebrews 6:4-8[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

What is the "falling away" that is being spoken of there??

 

[Ahwatukee]

What is the "falling away" that is being spoken of there??

Complete apostasy

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You're always a citizen though. You may decide to go some place else, but you don't lose your citizenship.

It's not like a temporary residency, which can be taken away.

Try renouncing your citizenship and see what happens.

 

[Grace777x70]

Try to un-born ourselves from being a human and see how far we get. We can't un-born ourselves and neither can we nullify the work of Christ in our inner man - created in righteousness and holiness.

The natural mind of man will come up with all kinds of reasons to try to nullify the work of Christ.

1 Peter 1:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

As soon as the word of God in our inner man of the heart becomes corruptible - we are safe in Christ. Our minds may get scrambled for many reasons but it does not touch the new creation in Christ. We are joined as one spirit with Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.