Eternal Security and free choice for the Christian?

[PeterJens]

Dude I opened a thread proving you were a liar and did not know what I believed. You did nothing to refute what I said.
You still can't

Wow. I am a liar. Why do you use this language? It is not helpful, it is just abusive and aggressive.
Is this how Jesus told you to deal with fellow believers?

We are very different in how we approach life. You cannot see how I approach life, but I know 100% how you do.
And that is why I see and you do not.

 

[Budman]

Any created being who sins falls out of grace with God.

Then that means their salvation is lost.

So, let me ask you, how many times a day do you lose your salvation and get saved again?

Unless you're going to claim you no longer sin.......

 

[Budman]

Is this how Jesus told you to deal with fellow believers?

I'm going to be blunt. You believe a different gospel. A salvation that is dependent on works to maintain.

According to God's word, you are not a Christian.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader, Kingdoms are founded on principles and understanding.

EG says lots of things about me which I do not hold to, and as many have observed at face value our theologies are very similar except for a few small points. But that makes me in his eyes a liar, hypocrite and unsaved.

This for me demonstrates unless your emotional outlook is transformed you will stay a sinner with christian language until you meet the Lord.

 

[Budman]

EG says lots of things about me which I do not hold to

That's not true. Yours is a salvation by merit - exactly as EG keeps pointing out.

our theologies are very similar except for a few small points.

Your theology and biblical Christianity are as different as night and day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow. I am a liar. Why do you use this language? It is not helpful, it is just abusive and aggressive.
Is this how Jesus told you to deal with fellow believers?

We are very different in how we approach life. You cannot see how I approach life, but I know 100% how you do.
And that is why I see and you do not.

So its ok for you to call me a liar, but not me to show you have lied about me..

Thanks, once again, you are a "do as I say, not as a do" person.

 

[Amellinialman]

Eternal security and free will are antithetical. We mortals are incapable to make any choice concerning God unless the Holy Spirit first draw us to Him. You freedom to choose what color shirt you will wear stands in contrast to the freedom we do not have in choosing to repent of sin and obtaining forgiveness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear reader, Kingdoms are founded on principles and understanding.

EG says lots of things about me which I do not hold to, and as many have observed at face value our theologies are very similar except for a few small points. But that makes me in his eyes a liar, hypocrite and unsaved.

so prove it like i did, and do all the time

You just judged me for calling you a liar, and then said I was not christianlike, yet here you are lieing again. Make accusations without any proof..

I prove, or at least attempt to prove my accusations. You never do that, you just make simple statment that I am a liar,, thats it.

Start proving it, like I do..

This for me demonstrates unless your emotional outlook is transformed you will stay a sinner with christian language until you meet the Lord.

Oh so your sinless??

Here we are again reader. What is this two maybe three times today where Peter has to be Sinless in order to live up to his own standard..

 

[Amellinialman]

What I see is the classic fallacy of ad hominem. Let us not attack with hate. Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism should be dead. Any choice that one thinks he can make to obtain salvation and hope to be eternally secure is relying on his own righteousness. Everything is a gift, why cannot we understand this. Christ died for the ungodly. So physician heal thyself. Let him who is filthy let him be filthy still or but on the righteous robes of Christ and be clean.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And this person calls himself a christian, Who is following the law. Then why is he lying? How can a person sit there, tell a bold faced lie (not even a little white lie) and say he is a follower of God? [/B]

No one, and I mean No one I have ever heard has said it is impossible to do Gods will.. This is outright false accusations and bearing false witness.

An apology from you really is in order.

And what exactly are we to obey and what are these commands that He has left us to fulfill?

Try Matthew 5-7 for starters.

How about we go right to the end of the discourse so we see it context of everything Jesus taught.......

Matthew 48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

You tell me when you are able to reach this impossibility?
When you accept that not one of us can reach this bar of perfection that Jesus has set, maybe then, you will understand what Jesus was truly teaching.

I do not need to try anything... because it is not my effort that matters....it is what Jesus accomplished that matters.

 

[Chester]

Since I started this thread, just a short note:

It seems like there have been (still are?) some accusations being flung back and forth. I am not going to try to resolve the matter: probably wouldn't help.

I think we can debate the issue of eternal security and of the role of faith, grace, and works without having to get defensive or angry or defamatory. And I personally don't think it is biblical or correct to presume the person with the opposite view can't be a Christian or has the wrong gospel.

Either side could presume that the other side is heretical if they don't listen to what the other side says: I have sometimes wondered if some of the things flung back and forth are even read by the other side?!

The gospel (good news) is salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the central core of the good news. I think most OSAS and "anti OSAS" people will affirm this core part of the gospel.

Do we disagree on the details? Sure - I am still looking for someone to give a verse that clearly states "once saved always saved"? Haven't seen one yet!!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

An apology from you really is in order.

oh so your perfect. You have become sinless. If not. then he was right, and you can not reach that possibility.

If so. Please say yes, then I will apologize.

If not. Then you just wasted your time trying to prove me wrong..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Since I started this thread, just a short note:

It seems like there have been (still are?) some accusations being flung back and forth. I am not going to try to resolve the matter: probably wouldn't help.

I think we can debate the issue of eternal security and of the role of faith, grace, and works without having to get defensive or angry or defamatory. And I personally don't think it is biblical or correct to presume the person with the opposite view can't be a Christian or has the wrong gospel.

Either side could presume that the other side is heretical if they don't listen to what the other side says: I have sometimes wondered if some of the things flung back and forth are even read by the other side?!

The gospel (good news) is salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the central core of the good news. I think most OSAS and "anti OSAS" people will affirm this core part of the gospel.

Do we disagree on the details? Sure - I am still looking for someone to give a verse that clearly states "once saved always saved"? Haven't seen one yet!!!

Osas is just another term for eternal life, Or eternal security.

We both can not be one in christ, because we teach two different gospels. As paul made clear in gal 1. we both can not be right.

So unless your teaching universalism (where everyone is saved) what you just suggested is not true.

 

[Amellinialman]

Chester, what we have to understand is the issue of who is the elect. This is the core issue. The elect of God has been settled before the foundation of the world. Why do we not walk into that grace. We are God's elect. I have a Christian friend who struggles with this doctrine. I tell him, dude, you have been declared righteous by the eternal fiat of God. So what is the problem. Your salvation is secure now walk in sanctification until the time for glorification.

 

[Amellinialman]

The elect is not universal. Some will rise to eternal life and the others to condemnation. You have faulty view of this subject. You either let the Law condemn you and turn to Christ or do not repent and be condemed by the Law. I must go now and leave you to your struggles.

 

[PeterJens]

So its ok for you to call me a liar, but not me to show you have lied about me..

Thanks, once again, you are a "do as I say, not as a do" person.

I am sorry EG. I am lost on your belief I am lying about you. You claim I am a legalist because I believe you can walk in righteousness and purity. You then say I am lying to say you do not believe you can walk in righteousness and purity.

This is a confusing position to take. I am either right and you agree with me, or I am wrong and you do not agree.
I cannot be called a liar for saying you do not believe this.

You claim eternal security, that even if you fall away you are saved. Now I hold if you fall away from faith, you no longer believe in Jesus and therefore have given up your salvation. Again I am not lying, I am defining what you have stated.

So from my position you just want to smear me, but all I would point out, it is meaningless. You do not change the argument or make anything clearer but just fling an accusation. You are caught in this hamster wheel.

I just want to praise the Lord for His love for me and those who believe in Him.

 

[PeterJens]

There is a simple point here. To walk with Jesus is to focus on today and put love to work.
Yes it is a hope for the future, when the Kingdom comes to earth with Jesus's return, but we are also Gods kingdom on earth today.

But to some I am an enemy so they must find a reason why I am evil and lost. The truth is we believe the same things but interpret things slightly differently. It is dangerous to then cast me as an enemy, because this is creating civil war on miss-understanding not love or reality.

So whether you think God is working in you and changing you through grace or you desire to walk in righteousness, it is love that is our king and learning how to love one another that marks out our life and King.

If you regard anyone this close as failing, then you are no longer a sheep but a wolf. So let us encourage each other to learn more from our Lord, to follow Him and let His Holy Spirit work in our hearts bringing glory to His name.

 

[PeterJens]

Spiritual realities. Things are simple. A sin causes damage, results in the breaking of relationships.
It is in knowing what drives us to sin is cynicism about love and being hurt, and doubting God will see us through.

I have been taught to do the opposite to trust Jesus and to take steps forward. Being here on cc is one.
What drives me is to encourage people to focus on love and how it works from the heart. What was strange to me, is those from the hyper-grace group opposed this, in very vehment terms. It has taken months, but now people are talking about love being a crucial part of the gospel and the Kingdom.

It leads me to wonder if this group actually had the gospel at their core, rather than a rebellion against what they saw as a failure in the traditional church. I would agree with failure, but put this at the feet of emotional honesty and a belief you can know God and not be real about where you are and where you are called to work to get to.

So when spirituality becomes more complex, it is because there is a lie at its core, and hiding this lie is part of the mantra.
A lot of hyper-grace only works if you understand traditional christianity. It is there where it fails.
Most hyper grace people here are believers who were christian believers first in other positions within christianity, so they are a protest group rather than authentic believers. Listen to their preaching, and it is always a criticism of others.
Let your "yes" be "yes" and your "no" be "no", anything else is from the evil one.

 

[Amellinialman]

If you say you are not right how can you claim to see what is truth?

 

[Throughthedome]

God is so much simpler than all of these conversations. Remember what Jesus said, to be like a child. True love from God envelopes you and there is no better feeling, you cannot even put it into words. Instead of exactly what this or that means, I have learned what the love of God means, and now I am focusing on my work, with God, and my working for God, to continue on in my journey and to always remain in His Love. I have felt the love of God, and it is his grace. We need to lift our christian brothers up who are depressed. We need to, just like the word of the Lord says, give food and drink to the hungry and thirsty, clothe the naked, greet the strangers, visit those in prison, and care for the sick. And the one that is driving me right now, we need to save the lost. Romans 10:9 is there for all to see, and we need to preach this to the whole world, that the world would open their heart and accept Jesus into their heart completely, as their Lord and Savior, and to realize that they are saved. I have just recently been saved, and this is my mission. I have just been born again, and I am asking you to pray to our God, that he will reveal clearly to me what I must do, and that he will keep all of the arrows of the enemy away from me in my path in doing it. I love all of you, and I hope to meet all of you personally one day who are reading this, all of you, that do not stop, that through it all you persevere with the strength of God that is in you to make it until the end. Stay in the name of Jesus Christ.