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Yeah, because every Christian takes part in what you describe -- especially murder. Hyperbole much?
And for the sake of argument let's say every professing Christian throughout space and time has been guilty of the sins you mention, the bottom line is Jesus' saving grace is infinitely more powerful than our sin, and to say otherwise means you don't give much credence to Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross or the Empty Tomb. God looks at our heart -- love conquers all, hence the two Greatest Commandments.
And for the sake of argument let's say every professing Christian throughout space and time has been guilty of the sins you mention, the bottom line is Jesus' saving grace is infinitely more powerful than our sin, and to say otherwise means you don't give much credence to Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross or the Empty Tomb. God looks at our heart -- love conquers all, hence the two Greatest Commandments.
I see. So if a person murders, is a serial adulterer, a habitual thief and takes the Lords name in vain all their life you believe they still attain heaven.
The parable of the sower is good. The second and third examples both believed, and set out on the path. You cant say the second example didn't for Jesus said they accepted the word with joy and believed, but when the time of testing came they fell away.
So although in both examples they set out on the path, in the second example they walked away. In the third example they let themselves be distracted from the path so they never matured in the faith, but Jesus doesn't say they walked away.
Interesting isn't it.
The parable of the sower is good. The second and third examples both believed, and set out on the path. You cant say the second example didn't for Jesus said they accepted the word with joy and believed, but when the time of testing came they fell away.
So although in both examples they set out on the path, in the second example they walked away. In the third example they let themselves be distracted from the path so they never matured in the faith, but Jesus doesn't say they walked away.
Interesting isn't it.
You failed to answer my question in post 202 so I'll answer it for you. Yes, you do hyperbole much.
Your repeated exaggerations weaken your stance in that you fail to understand the full power of Jesus' victory over death. No worries; just continue to go about your business of being a stumbling block against would-be followers of Christ, but not for your cold heart-ed legalism.
God is not impressed with your self boasting.
Your repeated exaggerations weaken your stance in that you fail to understand the full power of Jesus' victory over death. No worries; just continue to go about your business of being a stumbling block against would-be followers of Christ, but not for your cold heart-ed legalism.
God is not impressed with your self boasting.
I am not boasting at all, call it hyperbole if you wish but it is what you actually believe.
You only speak of half a message.
I am not a legalist, but I don't ignore the half of the message that might not sound so cosy to some.
But if you are led by the spirit you are not under law Gal5:18
That is part of the message too
You only speak of half a message.
I am not a legalist, but I don't ignore the half of the message that might not sound so cosy to some.
But if you are led by the spirit you are not under law Gal5:18
That is part of the message too
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"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Matthew 24:12-13). This certainly sounds like a requirement. Those who think they can mock God and his sacrifice by willfully sinning and never repenting, while simultaneously claiming to be a believer, are what the bible refers to as hypocrites. Its a dangerous non-biblical ideology that promotes a false sense of Christianity. He that "believeth" is not an idle word, we follow after what we believe to be true. Willfully breaking commandments is ignoring Christ, and Christians should never put something they claim to believe in on a shelf and continue with their sinful ways. "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me" (Matthew 15:8 & Isaiah 29:13). Doing is believing; "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me" (John 14:21). How superficial is it for a Christian who claims to believe, but yet is content to sin? Our faith is demonstrated by our works (James 2:18).
I think you are not putting some scripture together with yours to get the true picture. Lets get the unsaved saved first. What must we do to be saved? We are told that we no longer need to follow the laws of Moses to be saved, but to believe in Jesus.Acts 16:30-31 (30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”) We are also told that we must profess with our mouths to be saved. Romans 10:9-10 ( 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.) Once we are saved how are we supposed to live? First we must love one another. Matthew22:36-40 (36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”) So we need to love God and each other and if we do that we are following the law anyway. These two concepts go together, in that we show our love for one another by professing our faith in Jesus and thereby trying to make believers of the unsaved and prevent them from future suffering. The "works" of faith is not a work to make us a better person as are the laws, but to show our love for others.
As far as continuing to sin, Paul deals with this problem himself in Romans chapter 7:7-25. I won't include the whole passage, but the 21-25 verses which convey the main meaning. (21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.) To begin with he says that it is not lawful to sin, but realizes that our sinful nature is still at work in our bodies and we are constantly at war with ourselves over whether to do wrong or not. So when we are saved we desire to do right not wrong and if the desire to do wrong is not fought against then we are not truly saved, because the love of others isn't there.
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”) We are also told that we must profess with our mouths to be saved. Romans 10:9-10 ( 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.) Once we are saved how are we supposed to live? First we must love one another. Matthew22:36-40 (36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”) So we need to love God and each other and if we do that we are following the law anyway. These two concepts go together, in that we show our love for one another by professing our faith in Jesus and thereby trying to make believers of the unsaved and prevent them from future suffering. The "works" of faith is not a work to make us a better person as are the laws, but to show our love for others.
As far as continuing to sin, Paul deals with this problem himself in Romans chapter 7:7-25. I won't include the whole passage, but the 21-25 verses which convey the main meaning. (21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.) To begin with he says that it is not lawful to sin, but realizes that our sinful nature is still at work in our bodies and we are constantly at war with ourselves over whether to do wrong or not. So when we are saved we desire to do right not wrong and if the desire to do wrong is not fought against then we are not truly saved, because the love of others isn't there.
Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart (not just in your head) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness *(see Romans 4:5 - believes, faith accounted for righteousness), and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. It's not believes unto righteousness today (but still lost) then confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord next week and are finally saved next week.
I met a guy once who had completely repudiated the faith. He said that he had been a very devout believer. He moved to Israel, married a Jewish woman and completely disavowed Christ. He thought the faith was complete nonsense. I was a young believer and appalled. How could that possibly happen, I thought. The bible makes it clear: some after coming to the faith decide they love the world more than GOD and then abandon the faith.
Whoever does not carry his own cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, wanting to build a tower, does not first sit down [and] calculate the cost [to see] if he has [enough] to complete it? Otherwise [after] he has laid the foundation and is not able to finish [it], all who see [it] will begin to ridicule him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish!’ Luke 14:27-30
K
Who says I don't have compassionate on the less fortunate ???
Why must you try to twist things around on people to make it sound as if they are doing something they are not ???
Preaching the full truth from God's word is not in any shape or form doing what you claim on me, as the less fortunate still can love and obey God's ways as He laid down to us.
I am not judging nobody, just plainly stating what the Word of God says, and Apostle Paul and Jesus both said that we have the right to shun and cast out those who continue to live deliberate sinful lives and refuse to give them up. You may not like that but both of them said we can, and I choose to follow what they say over others.
Rebuking, reproving, shunning, and casting out is not being judgmental !!!
We are allowed in God's word to do these things to our fellow brothers and sisters if they are walking improperly in the faith. People need to study and realize more what truly the judging we are not to do is !!!
From there one can then see the difference between rebuking for correction and condemning, instead of continue to think every time one is rebuked they are being judged and condemned.
Why must you try to twist things around on people to make it sound as if they are doing something they are not ???
Preaching the full truth from God's word is not in any shape or form doing what you claim on me, as the less fortunate still can love and obey God's ways as He laid down to us.
I am not judging nobody, just plainly stating what the Word of God says, and Apostle Paul and Jesus both said that we have the right to shun and cast out those who continue to live deliberate sinful lives and refuse to give them up. You may not like that but both of them said we can, and I choose to follow what they say over others.
Rebuking, reproving, shunning, and casting out is not being judgmental !!!
We are allowed in God's word to do these things to our fellow brothers and sisters if they are walking improperly in the faith. People need to study and realize more what truly the judging we are not to do is !!!
From there one can then see the difference between rebuking for correction and condemning, instead of continue to think every time one is rebuked they are being judged and condemned.
K
No, I have that part down correctly.........
You have that scripture from Ephesians 2:8 misapplied, as it is referring to when God sent Jesus in the flesh to die on the cross. No man did anything to deserve God doing that for us !!!
From there in order to be under God's grace we have to put our faith and trust in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
You are trying to put Grace and Faith as the same thing....Remember it is saved by Grace through faith !!!
Nobody again is saying it is earned as that is your misconception that you can not get passed, as what is truthfully being said is that one who is truly saved and has the Holy Spirit abiding in them their actions will be evident of this.
Continuing down the same sinful path and mistreatment of others is a clear sign of no Truth/Eternal life abiding in that person.
It's not about works earn salvation, works one does is proof they are saved in Christ to salvation !!!
You have that scripture from Ephesians 2:8 misapplied, as it is referring to when God sent Jesus in the flesh to die on the cross. No man did anything to deserve God doing that for us !!!
From there in order to be under God's grace we have to put our faith and trust in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
You are trying to put Grace and Faith as the same thing....Remember it is saved by Grace through faith !!!
Nobody again is saying it is earned as that is your misconception that you can not get passed, as what is truthfully being said is that one who is truly saved and has the Holy Spirit abiding in them their actions will be evident of this.
Continuing down the same sinful path and mistreatment of others is a clear sign of no Truth/Eternal life abiding in that person.
It's not about works earn salvation, works one does is proof they are saved in Christ to salvation !!!
K
The issue stems from those who follow after a easy-believism itching ears version of the message of Christ, which is not the true message as Paul constantly warned about.
People want to constantly speak on, "believe in Christ, believe in Christ," but their wording on this shows they have been kept from maturing in the faith to know exactly what that word in red really means.
That have been taught:
"Jesus came in the flesh, died on the cross for our sins, and was resurrected on the third day."
Every believer is taught those basic facts, but this is just the beginning of the faith and not the end of it !!!
We are told and commanded we must grow and mature in the faith to reach the goal (Philippians 3), and part of that growth is understanding what it truly means to believe in Jesus.
We don't need to go to other men or other study materials to know what this means, as all we need to do is read our Lord and Saviors own words on what it means to believe in Him. He stated clearly for us it comes in 3 parts: We come to Him, hear what He says, and then we go and do what He says.
People have been mislead in a teaching that only gives the first 2 parts and leaves off the 3rd, this is so that misconceived ideal that people who are still a slave/servant to sin will be saved as well.
Light and darkness has no fellowship with one another, yet these doctrines of men force fellowship between the two.....
If sin has no stance as they state then why does Paul give the Corinthian church permission to cast out those who refuse to give up but continue in sinful ways ??? We are told not to even eat with them !!!
People want to constantly speak on, "believe in Christ, believe in Christ," but their wording on this shows they have been kept from maturing in the faith to know exactly what that word in red really means.
That have been taught:
"Jesus came in the flesh, died on the cross for our sins, and was resurrected on the third day."
Every believer is taught those basic facts, but this is just the beginning of the faith and not the end of it !!!
We are told and commanded we must grow and mature in the faith to reach the goal (Philippians 3), and part of that growth is understanding what it truly means to believe in Jesus.
We don't need to go to other men or other study materials to know what this means, as all we need to do is read our Lord and Saviors own words on what it means to believe in Him. He stated clearly for us it comes in 3 parts: We come to Him, hear what He says, and then we go and do what He says.
People have been mislead in a teaching that only gives the first 2 parts and leaves off the 3rd, this is so that misconceived ideal that people who are still a slave/servant to sin will be saved as well.
Light and darkness has no fellowship with one another, yet these doctrines of men force fellowship between the two.....
If sin has no stance as they state then why does Paul give the Corinthian church permission to cast out those who refuse to give up but continue in sinful ways ??? We are told not to even eat with them !!!
He "said" that he had been a very devout believer. I've heard others make that claim as well. Some people even come on these Christian forums and make that claim but when I press these people to explain to me how they became a Christian and what it means to be a believer, they could not give me a sufficient answer. 
This demonstrates to me that his faith was never firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start or else he would have continued. In John 8:31, Jesus said if you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine..
1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
The Bible makes it clear that not everyone who sets out to be a disciple of Christ is a genuine believer. In the latter part of John chapter six, after Jesus' hard sayings about partaking of His flesh and blood (vs. 48-58), some of His disciples complained. We are told that Jesus knew that some of them did not believe. John 6:64 - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. In verse 66 it says, "From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more." This group had been called 'disciples', but He says they did not believe, and finally they left. From Jesus' very words, we know that they were not believers/not saved in the first place.
This demonstrates to me that his faith was never firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start or else he would have continued. In John 8:31, Jesus said if you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine..
1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
The Bible makes it clear that not everyone who sets out to be a disciple of Christ is a genuine believer. In the latter part of John chapter six, after Jesus' hard sayings about partaking of His flesh and blood (vs. 48-58), some of His disciples complained. We are told that Jesus knew that some of them did not believe. John 6:64 - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. In verse 66 it says, "From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more." This group had been called 'disciples', but He says they did not believe, and finally they left. From Jesus' very words, we know that they were not believers/not saved in the first place.
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What he described to me about his Christian walk sounded very much like mine. Very devoted and committed; very knowledgeable about the bible. Saying that such persons like this were never saved in the first place seems pointless and contradicts the parable of the sower of seed. In two cases, the seed takes root and grows, but to no lasting avail.
What he described to me about his Christian walk sounded very much like mine. Very devoted and committed; very knowledgeable about the bible. Saying that such persons like this were never saved in the first place seems pointless and contradicts the parable of the sower of seed. In two cases, the seed takes root and grows, but to no lasting avail.
He "said" that he had been a very devout believer. I've heard others make that claim as well. Some people even come on these Christian forums and make that claim but when I press these people to explain to me how they became a Christian and what it means to be a believer, they could not give me a sufficient answer.
This demonstrates to me that his faith was never firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start or else he would have continued. In John 8:31, Jesus said if you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine..
1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
The Bible makes it clear that not everyone who sets out to be a disciple of Christ is a genuine believer. In the latter part of John chapter six, after Jesus' hard sayings about partaking of His flesh and blood (vs. 48-58), some of His disciples complained. We are told that Jesus knew that some of them did not believe. John 6:64 - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. In verse 66 it says, "From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more." This group had been called 'disciples', but He says they did not believe, and finally they left. From Jesus' very words, we know that they were not believers/not saved in the first place.
This demonstrates to me that his faith was never firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start or else he would have continued. In John 8:31, Jesus said if you continue in My word, then you are TRULY disciples of Mine..
1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
The Bible makes it clear that not everyone who sets out to be a disciple of Christ is a genuine believer. In the latter part of John chapter six, after Jesus' hard sayings about partaking of His flesh and blood (vs. 48-58), some of His disciples complained. We are told that Jesus knew that some of them did not believe. John 6:64 - But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. In verse 66 it says, "From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more." This group had been called 'disciples', but He says they did not believe, and finally they left. From Jesus' very words, we know that they were not believers/not saved in the first place.
no ken no. you are focusing on the wrong part. GRACE saves. it is a gift. the way you are trying to describe it is once you have grace, you have to work to keep it. and yes there 100% should be fruits of the Sprit evident. but these are a result of a new heart given by salvation, they are not the cause, but the result.
Just some thoughts on the parable of the sower
1) some accept the message, it is placed in their heart. They believe Jesus died for them, but then satan snatches the message out of their heart by making them turn away from trusting in what Jesus did for them to grow, into trusting themselves. In reality they obey the law of perish.
2) some accept the message, God takes them at their word and they set out on the path, but when trials and persecutions come because of the word they give up and walk away.
3) Some make a wholehearted commitment to God, but though they initially do, they keep letting themselves get sidetracked from the true path by the cares of the world. They don't walk away from the faith, but they keep returning to follow after the flesh rather than the spirit for a time. Because of this they never mature in the faith.
4) some hear the word and understand it, and by perseverance at following the true path bring in a harvest
1) some accept the message, it is placed in their heart. They believe Jesus died for them, but then satan snatches the message out of their heart by making them turn away from trusting in what Jesus did for them to grow, into trusting themselves. In reality they obey the law of perish.
2) some accept the message, God takes them at their word and they set out on the path, but when trials and persecutions come because of the word they give up and walk away.
3) Some make a wholehearted commitment to God, but though they initially do, they keep letting themselves get sidetracked from the true path by the cares of the world. They don't walk away from the faith, but they keep returning to follow after the flesh rather than the spirit for a time. Because of this they never mature in the faith.
4) some hear the word and understand it, and by perseverance at following the true path bring in a harvest
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K
Please stop trying to twist my words !!!
For again I never said they cause or earn salvation, that is you who can not get over thinking that way.
I said and have always said they are proof that one is saved in Christ, without that fruit clearly shows that person is not His. Jesus, Paul, and John all three say and shows this !!!
You can not be saved in Christ and still continue to be the same wretched sinful person as before, Paul states and shows this very clearly in all of his epistles.
What does the bible say about those who depart or leave the faith in Christ ???
It says they fall back into condemnation or go to perdition, it does not say they still receive eternal life unless they return to the Lord.
It is all about keeping the faith or not keeping the faith, it has absolutely nothing to do with works earning that a few of you can not stop falsely putting on us. Those works are just the proof, and the absence of that proof shows one is not saved with the Holy Spirit abiding in them.
The bible states a few times there are those who will depart and not continue in the faith, and the ending result for those is not good !!!
For again I never said they cause or earn salvation, that is you who can not get over thinking that way.
I said and have always said they are proof that one is saved in Christ, without that fruit clearly shows that person is not His. Jesus, Paul, and John all three say and shows this !!!
You can not be saved in Christ and still continue to be the same wretched sinful person as before, Paul states and shows this very clearly in all of his epistles.
What does the bible say about those who depart or leave the faith in Christ ???
It says they fall back into condemnation or go to perdition, it does not say they still receive eternal life unless they return to the Lord.
It is all about keeping the faith or not keeping the faith, it has absolutely nothing to do with works earning that a few of you can not stop falsely putting on us. Those works are just the proof, and the absence of that proof shows one is not saved with the Holy Spirit abiding in them.
The bible states a few times there are those who will depart and not continue in the faith, and the ending result for those is not good !!!
K
This is one of the main issues people have today.........
They do all kinds of studying of the scriptures, go to Seminary schools, or bible colleges and get all the head knowledge possible to man.
But they still fail to do one thing that is required and that is to have an intimate relationship with the Lord.
They want to love Him and say they love Him but when it comes to being obedient and following what He said, then out comes all the excuses in the world why they will not.
Love is not apart or absence of obedience, as we can not claim to trust somebody if we don't trust to follow what He said !!!
Head knowledge does not save, it only stirs up self pride.............
They do all kinds of studying of the scriptures, go to Seminary schools, or bible colleges and get all the head knowledge possible to man.
But they still fail to do one thing that is required and that is to have an intimate relationship with the Lord.
They want to love Him and say they love Him but when it comes to being obedient and following what He said, then out comes all the excuses in the world why they will not.
Love is not apart or absence of obedience, as we can not claim to trust somebody if we don't trust to follow what He said !!!
Head knowledge does not save, it only stirs up self pride.............