“Confronting the Error of Hyper-Grace” – a response to Michael Brown
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I'll go with you EG!!
I never heard of the guy John Crowder either but like you I've been around long enough to know how this works... It takes lots of time to establish yourself as someone who is not a nut here on these forums lol and quite frankly I've been labeled some nasty things here based on some of my word of faith leanings. Many hear the words- 'Word of Faith' and have visions of Benie Hinn slaying people with the Star Wars lite saver! (a video that never fails to cause me to laugh hysterically btw)So I'm with you dear brother EG, hear someone out before judging.
Hello all,
For anyone who is interested, I thought this was in-part, a pretty good analogy of Hyper-Grace:
=============================================
Imagine a car dealership that provides every car buyer with a free car wash for as long as they own the car. You purchase a car, and along with the required paperwork you are given a free-car-wash certificate. The dealer tells you he has fully paid for all the car washes you will ever need, saying he believes that a clean car is the greatest way of advertising and promoting his dealership.
Several days later, you happen to drive down a muddy country road full of potholes and ruts. Later, you notice your car is covered with mud and decide to avail yourself of your free lifetime car wash. But before you have time to drive through the car wash, your friends inform you that you no longer have to go there. They tell you that your first car wash was all that was necessary. Any suggestion that you need another wash is not only wrong, but a lie.
You try and reason with your friends and even show them your dirty car. They still refuse to acknowledge that the car needs washing, even after seeing the condition of the car. They inform you that what the dealer really meant was that once the dealership had purchased the car wash for you, that would keep the car clean forever. They also argued that to suggest it needed washing again was an insult to the dealer and the dealership. "Don't you realize," your friends tell you, “when the dealer first paid for your car wash, that automatically washed it for life; all past, present and future dirt was washed away, and therefore it never needs to be washed again.”
Such logic would, by anyone's reasoning, be considered imbecilic, ignorant or crazy, to say the least. Obviously, what the dealer intended was that anytime you needed your car washed, you could avail yourself of a car wash because he had already paid for it in advance.
Thinking back on your conversation with the dealer, you recall him telling you that he has a personal hatred for dirty cars and that is why he paid for a lifetime of free washes to anyone who asked. He went on to say that if—and not when—you happen to get your car dirty, the car wash would take care of it. He obviously never intended for you to drive around searching for dirty roads just so you could avail yourself of the car wash. That, he said, would be abusive to the car-wash program and an insult to his dealership.
In a similar way, the atoning work of Christ paid in full for all my sin. This, however, does not exclude my need for repentance, nor does it give me license to sin as I please. For my "friends" to tell me otherwise is totally false and misleading.
Sadly, this is the logic behind the new hyper-grace message. The essence behind this false teaching is that all sins past, present and future have already been atoned for and therefore there is no longer any need to repent. That, the proponents of this idea say, would be tantamount to telling God you don't believe He has paid for all your sin.
This type of fuzzy theology falls apart for this reason: If repentance is acknowledging a sin that has already been forgiven, thereby making repentance unnecessary, then why do we tell people to repent the first time in order to be saved? If repentance is wrong following salvation, then using the same "logic," repentance is wrong prior to salvation too.
The error here is that this type of teaching leads to ultimate reconciliation or universalism. Jesus paid for all sin; therefore, all are saved.
The fact is that the provision for my cleansing was completed at the cross but the process of my cleansing is conditional upon my repentance, and not before.
For anyone who is interested, I thought this was in-part, a pretty good analogy of Hyper-Grace:
=============================================
Imagine a car dealership that provides every car buyer with a free car wash for as long as they own the car. You purchase a car, and along with the required paperwork you are given a free-car-wash certificate. The dealer tells you he has fully paid for all the car washes you will ever need, saying he believes that a clean car is the greatest way of advertising and promoting his dealership.
Several days later, you happen to drive down a muddy country road full of potholes and ruts. Later, you notice your car is covered with mud and decide to avail yourself of your free lifetime car wash. But before you have time to drive through the car wash, your friends inform you that you no longer have to go there. They tell you that your first car wash was all that was necessary. Any suggestion that you need another wash is not only wrong, but a lie.
You try and reason with your friends and even show them your dirty car. They still refuse to acknowledge that the car needs washing, even after seeing the condition of the car. They inform you that what the dealer really meant was that once the dealership had purchased the car wash for you, that would keep the car clean forever. They also argued that to suggest it needed washing again was an insult to the dealer and the dealership. "Don't you realize," your friends tell you, “when the dealer first paid for your car wash, that automatically washed it for life; all past, present and future dirt was washed away, and therefore it never needs to be washed again.”
Such logic would, by anyone's reasoning, be considered imbecilic, ignorant or crazy, to say the least. Obviously, what the dealer intended was that anytime you needed your car washed, you could avail yourself of a car wash because he had already paid for it in advance.
Thinking back on your conversation with the dealer, you recall him telling you that he has a personal hatred for dirty cars and that is why he paid for a lifetime of free washes to anyone who asked. He went on to say that if—and not when—you happen to get your car dirty, the car wash would take care of it. He obviously never intended for you to drive around searching for dirty roads just so you could avail yourself of the car wash. That, he said, would be abusive to the car-wash program and an insult to his dealership.
In a similar way, the atoning work of Christ paid in full for all my sin. This, however, does not exclude my need for repentance, nor does it give me license to sin as I please. For my "friends" to tell me otherwise is totally false and misleading.
Sadly, this is the logic behind the new hyper-grace message. The essence behind this false teaching is that all sins past, present and future have already been atoned for and therefore there is no longer any need to repent. That, the proponents of this idea say, would be tantamount to telling God you don't believe He has paid for all your sin.
This type of fuzzy theology falls apart for this reason: If repentance is acknowledging a sin that has already been forgiven, thereby making repentance unnecessary, then why do we tell people to repent the first time in order to be saved? If repentance is wrong following salvation, then using the same "logic," repentance is wrong prior to salvation too.
The error here is that this type of teaching leads to ultimate reconciliation or universalism. Jesus paid for all sin; therefore, all are saved.
The fact is that the provision for my cleansing was completed at the cross but the process of my cleansing is conditional upon my repentance, and not before.
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A slight problem with this (and not even addressing the fact that Jesus WAS God incarnate) is the several times when God dealt, face-to-face, with sinful humans. (In case you forgot, Moses was a murderer when he stayed for 40 days with God to get the Law....) not to mention the other eight, or so, times he climbed that mountain to go talk with God.
Adam & Eve were sinners when God talked with them, when He cursed them, when He clothed them. Then, you have Him talking to Cain, directly.
The Scriptures state that God NEVER left Jesus, not even for a moment. And if you read all of, what was it?, Psalm 22 that Jesus quoted from the cross? ("Why hath thou forsaken me"), you just might find yourself in for a big shock as you keep on reading the continuing verses.
And the point is NOT that Jesus didn't pay for our sins, as you seem to think is being said. He CERTAINLY DID pay for our sin. But it was NOT direct punishment from God. Had it been, by your belief, if God could not be around sin, then He certainly could not possibly have been the one there punishing Jesus whom the Bible says actually BECAME sin..... He would have had to flee that sin.
Adam & Eve were sinners when God talked with them, when He cursed them, when He clothed them. Then, you have Him talking to Cain, directly.
The Scriptures state that God NEVER left Jesus, not even for a moment. And if you read all of, what was it?, Psalm 22 that Jesus quoted from the cross? ("Why hath thou forsaken me"), you just might find yourself in for a big shock as you keep on reading the continuing verses.
And the point is NOT that Jesus didn't pay for our sins, as you seem to think is being said. He CERTAINLY DID pay for our sin. But it was NOT direct punishment from God. Had it been, by your belief, if God could not be around sin, then He certainly could not possibly have been the one there punishing Jesus whom the Bible says actually BECAME sin..... He would have had to flee that sin.
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FYI
the "emergent church" is not ultimately Christian - do we know that? I mean they are post-modern truth deniers - that we can even know anything is true. Rpb bell is a big time heretic, who left his "church" in an agnostic's hand who called it quits rather quickly.
I don't think there is an understanding as far as who God is among that lot
We are talking about them and hyper-grace - I don't think they know what that means or what the free grace of God is or produces
I do not think Grace is ever "free" in the terms where it cost God nothing
It cost Him the Son - His pearl of Great price
the "emergent church" is not ultimately Christian - do we know that? I mean they are post-modern truth deniers - that we can even know anything is true. Rpb bell is a big time heretic, who left his "church" in an agnostic's hand who called it quits rather quickly.
I don't think there is an understanding as far as who God is among that lot
We are talking about them and hyper-grace - I don't think they know what that means or what the free grace of God is or produces
I do not think Grace is ever "free" in the terms where it cost God nothing
It cost Him the Son - His pearl of Great price
Sadly, Guys...... read it. There was so much more to that quote Jesus spoke than we choose to see sometimes.
Psalm 22 King James Version (KJV)
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
Psalm 22 King James Version (KJV)
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
I can see where someone could think that...grace-based believers however view it that all sins are forgiven .
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven you = perfect passive in greek
perfect tense = an action that originates in the past and it's effects are in the present continuously in a completed state
Passive voice = an action that is happening to you from an outside force..not you doing it
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption ( present continuous action ) through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Notice here,,that it's according to His grace..
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption ( present continuous action ) , the forgiveness of sins.
This verse shows that Jesus has made us clean through His blood..but we need "washings" .."bathed" = redemption"..and "washings " are done by His word. He washes us by giving us His word by the Holy Spirit in us to correct our behavior by the life of Christ in us.
John 13:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed ( perfect passive ) needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, "Ephesians 5:26-27 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
[SUP]27 [/SUP] that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
There are tons more..but I'm getting tired of typing..lol..I now it's not what we were taught in our religious upbringing..I rebelled when I heard it too..I actually called it a heresy too..
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven you = perfect passive in greek
perfect tense = an action that originates in the past and it's effects are in the present continuously in a completed state
Passive voice = an action that is happening to you from an outside force..not you doing it
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption ( present continuous action ) through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Notice here,,that it's according to His grace..
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption ( present continuous action ) , the forgiveness of sins.
This verse shows that Jesus has made us clean through His blood..but we need "washings" .."bathed" = redemption"..and "washings " are done by His word. He washes us by giving us His word by the Holy Spirit in us to correct our behavior by the life of Christ in us.
John 13:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed ( perfect passive ) needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, "Ephesians 5:26-27 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
[SUP]27 [/SUP] that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
There are tons more..but I'm getting tired of typing..lol..I now it's not what we were taught in our religious upbringing..I rebelled when I heard it too..I actually called it a heresy too..
Interesting point here. I have been told I can never live righteously. Listen to John
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:6
He is saying if you hold to never being able to live righteously, you have neither seen Jesus or known him.
This is serious stuff. Now the claim is it is legalists who are causing sin through failure, yet the solution is just more failure. The problem is this sounds more like an excuse for sin. If it was not an excuse, talking about victory over sin would be the call, but it is not.
Grace7x77 believes everyone is christian, just carnal failure or spiritual grace founded. But this is unfounded and unscriptural. So much does not make sense until you understand the compromises people have made.
Unfortunately these are not the compromises Jesus made or approves. The kingdom is not founded on man or his arguments but the love expressed through the cross.
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:6
He is saying if you hold to never being able to live righteously, you have neither seen Jesus or known him.
This is serious stuff. Now the claim is it is legalists who are causing sin through failure, yet the solution is just more failure. The problem is this sounds more like an excuse for sin. If it was not an excuse, talking about victory over sin would be the call, but it is not.
Grace7x77 believes everyone is christian, just carnal failure or spiritual grace founded. But this is unfounded and unscriptural. So much does not make sense until you understand the compromises people have made.
Unfortunately these are not the compromises Jesus made or approves. The kingdom is not founded on man or his arguments but the love expressed through the cross.