When does the rapture occur?

[tanach]

If you see a pair of smoking boots on the pavement. You have been left behind.

 

[tanach]

Is it just me or does anyone else find it hard to imagine that there could be found 144000 Virgin JWs? Then again........

 

[valiant]

If you see a pair of smoking boots on the pavement. You have been left behind.

which will prove you are one of the lost awaiting immediate final judgment.

 

[flob]

Mystery Babylon is decidedly not Catholic. They have their doctrinal issues but they worship the correct God. To worship a "harlot" means you must worship a false god.

Catholicism doesn't worship the harlot, it Is the harlot. Harlot mom of little harlots, if we can talk about Christianity Denominations generally. 'Harlot' signifies the mixture, the dilution, of teachings and even experiences of the Lord, with idol-worship including ceremonialism and law-keeping, money-enterprises and clergy-laity

The key to being any pagan religion is that you worship false god(s)/idol(s). Islam worships a false god, "Allah" and a false prophet, "Muhammad." In comparing Catholics to Islam which of the two is more of a false religion? Also, there are more followers of Islam than there is of Catholicism.

Islam outright denies Christ. His person and work, His deity and His crucifixion for redemption. It outright, I believe, accuses the New Testament of failing or being lost/falsified. (I think it makes the same ridiculous claim about the OT.) Islam is beyond false. It's evil and stupid. There's no pretense of being the kingdom of Christ. Which is what the 'mixed Church,' like Orthodoxy and Catholicism, pretend.

another clue of the identity of the "Harlot."
Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
This concept of being "captive" to one's religion is used specifically for the Harlot and the Beast from the Sea which are Muslim nations. We already saw the idea that Hagar is the "Bondwoman" in that she is enslaved from Gal 4. We see that her offspring (from Ishmael) will persecute the Jews. One could never call the Catholic faith an "enslaving" religion. They are perhaps the least enslaving faith on earth with license to do pretty much whatever they want for the price of a few "Hail Mary's." However, Islam is perhaps the most enslaving religion on the planet. You have to follow their customs "religiously" or face death.

Islam is big in the news now. It's demonic and insane, and self-mutilating. This reminds me of God's judgment against Israel's enemies in Judges or wherever----to make them fight one another rather than Israel. In their insanity and blindness.
But Islam is neither Revelation's harlot or its beast. The harlot is the counterfeit church, in which however are and have been many precious members of Christ. Which is why He calls them out of her. The harlot represents a collective, and a religion.
The beast was and is the 4th beast, the final beast, in Daniel. Rome. But in particular in Revelation, her final Caesar, her final king. The 7th who become the 8th, Rv 17:7-15. Who, as the 8th, is 666. Nero's spirit resuscitating the assassinated body of the 7th. (The death-wound as in 13:3.)

Once the Israelites passed through the Red Sea they entered modern day Saudi Arabia. Here, in the wilderness of Arabia, they came to Mt. Sinai where Mosses was given the Law. Upon descending Mt. Sinai, Mosses found that his people made a "golden calf" idol to worship. This was obviously a custom they learned in Egypt. Where was John taken to see Mystery Babylon, the Mother of all Harlots?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast...
The same exact wilderness John's fathers were when they worshiped the golden calf idol.

What was the first and most important of all commandments?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]“You shall have no other gods before Me.

All these Scriptures are wonderful. And you're commended for knowing and reading them.
But this kind of interpreting is a stretch. It is ............ unnecessarily convoluted and forced.
I can try to think of ways to help you. In one sense it is no big deal. In that if you see it not
come to pass (just as if I see it come to pass), our responsibility and person doesn't change:
we're still responsible to gain the Lord.
The ultimate help, as in certain other nonessential subjects, will be to see in time whether
it transpires or not

 

[TKICBS]

I personally believed that all rapture teachings that did not see a post, last trumpet, great trumpet 7th trumpet understanding just missed it. I read every pre tribulation teaching I could find and none of them hold water unless you take the word out of context.
However, more recently I was reading 2 thess and noticed that the wicked in verse 2 is revealed BEFORE the gathering of the saints while in verse 7-8 the wicked is revealed AFTER, "he who lets is taken out of the way"
Well he who lets is also he who restrains. That can only be the Holy Ghost. If this is true then the Holy Ghost must be taken back to heaven to Jesus before the wicked is revealed. My understanding is that the wicked one is revealed when he sits in the temple. There is no temple until about the middle of the last 7 years. The little horn, who I presently believe is Turkey's prime minister Erdigon, is the one who takes away the daily sacrifice and sets up the abomination that causes desolation, according to Daniel 8.
So one can only believe that the removal of "He who lets" and the gathering of the saints are 2 different locations in time. I am sure that if the Holy Ghost is taken He will take all who are filled with His presents with Him.
So I asked, "Where is the second witness to this 2 raptures idea"
Look at Rev 12 then. Who is this child. It cannot be Jesus because Jesus is already in heaven and this event is just before the final 42 months. Remember, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is only here for the last 42 months. And the woman went to the wilderness for 1260 days (42 months)
Many have said that the child has to be Jesus because he rules with a rod of iron, however, in Rev 2 we are told that anyone who overcomes Jezebel will receive a rod of iron just as Jesus did from the Father.
But some say the child is only one person. But they also say that the woman is Israel. Well if the woman can be Israel the nation, then the child can be the nation. We are a nation unto God, a royal priesthood...
So now I am sure there are 2 raptures. One about the time of the abomination being set up and the other 1335 days from the time the abomination is set up. Daniel 12:12. The last, great, seventh mystery trumpet. Of course we can only see this if we are children of light, right? I mean no man knows the day or the hour....

 

[popeye]

I personally believed that all rapture teachings that did not see a post, last trumpet, great trumpet 7th trumpet understanding just missed it. I read every pre tribulation teaching I could find and none of them hold water unless you take the word out of context.
However, more recently I was reading 2 thess and noticed that the wicked in verse 2 is revealed BEFORE the gathering of the saints while in verse 7-8 the wicked is revealed AFTER, "he who lets is taken out of the way"
Well he who lets is also he who restrains. That can only be the Holy Ghost. If this is true then the Holy Ghost must be taken back to heaven to Jesus before the wicked is revealed. My understanding is that the wicked one is revealed when he sits in the temple. There is no temple until about the middle of the last 7 years. The little horn, who I presently believe is Turkey's prime minister Erdigon, is the one who takes away the daily sacrifice and sets up the abomination that causes desolation, according to Daniel 8.
So one can only believe that the removal of "He who lets" and the gathering of the saints are 2 different locations in time. I am sure that if the Holy Ghost is taken He will take all who are filled with His presents with Him.
So I asked, "Where is the second witness to this 2 raptures idea"
Look at Rev 12 then. Who is this child. It cannot be Jesus because Jesus is already in heaven and this event is just before the final 42 months. Remember, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is only here for the last 42 months. And the woman went to the wilderness for 1260 days (42 months)
Many have said that the child has to be Jesus because he rules with a rod of iron, however, in Rev 2 we are told that anyone who overcomes Jezebel will receive a rod of iron just as Jesus did from the Father.
But some say the child is only one person. But they also say that the woman is Israel. Well if the woman can be Israel the nation, then the child can be the nation. We are a nation unto God, a royal priesthood...
So now I am sure there are 2 raptures. One about the time of the abomination being set up and the other 1335 days from the time the abomination is set up. Daniel 12:12. The last, great, seventh mystery trumpet. Of course we can only see this if we are children of light, right? I mean no man knows the day or the hour....

Pretrib rapture.No doubt about it.

Factor in the AC beheading every single human w/o the mark,the 10 virgin parable,the promises at the last supper,the Jewish wedding dimension,and the times of the gentiles completed.

Only pretrib fits,and Jesus very own illustrations,Noah-Lot,have zero post-mid trib rapture inferences

 

[GaryA]

I personally believed that all rapture teachings that did not see a post, last trumpet, great trumpet 7th trumpet understanding just missed it. I read every pre tribulation teaching I could find and none of them hold water unless you take the word out of context.
However, more recently I was reading 2 thess and noticed that the wicked in verse 2 is revealed BEFORE the gathering of the saints while in verse 7-8 the wicked is revealed AFTER, "he who lets is taken out of the way"
Well he who lets is also he who restrains. That can only be the Holy Ghost. If this is true then the Holy Ghost must be taken back to heaven to Jesus before the wicked is revealed. My understanding is that the wicked one is revealed when he sits in the temple. There is no temple until about the middle of the last 7 years. The little horn, who I presently believe is Turkey's prime minister Erdigon, is the one who takes away the daily sacrifice and sets up the abomination that causes desolation, according to Daniel 8.
So one can only believe that the removal of "He who lets" and the gathering of the saints are 2 different locations in time. I am sure that if the Holy Ghost is taken He will take all who are filled with His presents with Him.
So I asked, "Where is the second witness to this 2 raptures idea"
Look at Rev 12 then. Who is this child. It cannot be Jesus because Jesus is already in heaven and this event is just before the final 42 months. Remember, the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is only here for the last 42 months. And the woman went to the wilderness for 1260 days (42 months)
Many have said that the child has to be Jesus because he rules with a rod of iron, however, in Rev 2 we are told that anyone who overcomes Jezebel will receive a rod of iron just as Jesus did from the Father.
But some say the child is only one person. But they also say that the woman is Israel. Well if the woman can be Israel the nation, then the child can be the nation. We are a nation unto God, a royal priesthood...
So now I am sure there are 2 raptures. One about the time of the abomination being set up and the other 1335 days from the time the abomination is set up. Daniel 12:12. The last, great, seventh mystery trumpet. Of course we can only see this if we are children of light, right? I mean no man knows the day or the hour....

No.

Pretrib rapture.No doubt about it.

Factor in the AC beheading every single human w/o the mark,the 10 virgin parable,the promises at the last supper,the Jewish wedding dimension,and the times of the gentiles completed.

Only pretrib fits,and Jesus very own illustrations,Noah-Lot,have zero post-mid trib rapture inferences

No.


Okay - let us dare to assume, for this discussion, that "until he be taken out of the way" is referring to the 'presence' of the Holy Spirit being "removed" from the Earth - i.e., by "removing" Holy Spirt indwelt believers from the Earth.


2 Thessalonians 2:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day { the day of Christ; the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, at which time 'our gathering together unto him' shall occur } shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, { i.e., the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE the day of Christ } the son of perdition; [SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [SUP]5[/SUP] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [SUP]6[/SUP] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [SUP]7[/SUP] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [SUP]8[/SUP] And then { AFTER 'he be taken out of the way' } shall that Wicked be revealed { the man of sin }, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming { i.e., AT the coming of Christ, the man of sin shall be destroyed }: [SUP]9[/SUP] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [SUP]10[/SUP] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11[/SUP] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [SUP]12[/SUP] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Order of Events:

~ a falling away
~ Holy Spirit 'taken out of the way'
~ man of sin revealed
~ man of sin operates "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
~ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ / our gathering together unto him / man of sin destroyed

Notice that 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' ( return of Christ ) and 'our gathering together unto him' ( 'rapture' ) comes AFTER [ everything else on the list ].

How could the 'presence' of the Holy Spirit be 'taken out of the way' before the return of Christ?

Answer: The martyrdom / beheading of the saints. ( Revelation 12:11; 13:7-8,15; 15:2; 20:4 )


Order of Events:

~ a falling away
~ Christians martyred
~ man of sin revealed
~ man of sin operates "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
~ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ / our gathering together unto him / man of sin destroyed

 

[GaryA]

[ Order of Events ] ( NOT an exhaustive list )

~ tribulation period starts

Matthew 24:21
Mark 13:19
Luke 21:22

~ Christians martyred during the tribulation period

Revelation 12:11
Revelation 13:7-8,15
Revelation 15:2
Revelation 20:4

~ tribulation period ends

Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26

~ two witnesses; trumpet events

Revelation 11:3-13
Revelation 8:7-13; 9:1-3

~ Christ returns ( 'post-trib' or 'pre-wrath' )

Acts 2:20

Matthew 24:30
Mark 13:26
Luke 21:27

Revelation 14:14

Revelation 19:11-13,15

1 Thessalonians 4:16

~ Rapture

Matthew 24:31
Mark 13:27

Revelation 14:16

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

~ Wrath of God

Revelation 14:17-20
Revelation 19:15
Revelation 16

..........

 

[popeye]

No.



No.


Okay - let us dare to assume, for this discussion, that "until he be taken out of the way" is referring to the 'presence' of the Holy Spirit being "removed" from the Earth - i.e., by "removing" Holy Spirt indwelt believers from the Earth.


2 Thessalonians 2:

[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day { the day of Christ; the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, at which time 'our gathering together unto him' shall occur } shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, { i.e., the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE the day of Christ } the son of perdition; [SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [SUP]5[/SUP] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [SUP]6[/SUP] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [SUP]7[/SUP] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [SUP]8[/SUP] And then { AFTER 'he be taken out of the way' } shall that Wicked be revealed { the man of sin }, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming { i.e., AT the coming of Christ, the man of sin shall be destroyed }: [SUP]9[/SUP] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [SUP]10[/SUP] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11[/SUP] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [SUP]12[/SUP] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Order of Events:

~ a falling away
~ Holy Spirit 'taken out of the way'
~ man of sin revealed
~ man of sin operates "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
~ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ / our gathering together unto him / man of sin destroyed

Notice that 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' ( return of Christ ) and 'our gathering together unto him' ( 'rapture' ) comes AFTER [ everything else on the list ].

How could the 'presence' of the Holy Spirit be 'taken out of the way' before the return of Christ?

Answer: The martyrdom / beheading of the saints. ( Revelation 12:11; 13:7-8,15; 15:2; 20:4 )


Order of Events:

~ a falling away
~ Christians martyred
~ man of sin revealed
~ man of sin operates "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
~ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ / our gathering together unto him / man of sin destroyed

According to your verse the Ac must be revealed first. We both believe that. So you basically have no point.

[SUP]8[/SUP] And then { AFTER 'he be taken out of the way' } shall that Wicked be revealed .....

Again,we BOTH believe this...yawn.

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Uh,yes HE will.......anything else? maybe another non issue?

BTW,Post/MIDTrib rapture doctrine,has no verses to back it up.(as you have shown).
Hint,We both believe HE comes back postrib. Your task is to show us how to negate the PRETRIB RAPTURE VERSES.
Try on mat 25;1 and show us a post/midtrib ANYTHING in that story.
I am sure you know there is zero comparison in Lot and Noah with post/mid flood,post/mid sodom destruction.....nothing.

~ Christ returns ( 'post-trib' or 'pre-wrath' )

Acts 2:20

Matthew 24:30
Mark 13:26
Luke 21:27

Revelation 14:14

Revelation 19:11-13,15

1 Thessalonians 4:16

~ Rapture

Matthew 24:31
Mark 13:27

Revelation 14:16

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

~ Wrath of God

Revelation 14:17-20
Revelation 19:15
Revelation 16

So. You have Christ returning in the middle of the GT (that would be "post trib,prewrath to you).

Far fetched,considering satan is chained and billions/millions are killed instantly at his return WITH HIS SAINTS according to rev 19.

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

I think you have a problem making that work.

 

[GaryA]

Did you somehow miss this? :

Order of Events:

~ a falling away
~ Holy Spirit 'taken out of the way'
~ man of sin revealed
~ man of sin operates "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
~ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ / our gathering together unto him / man of sin destroyed

Notice that 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' ( return of Christ ) and 'our gathering together unto him' ( 'rapture' ) comes AFTER [ everything else on the list ].

How could the 'presence' of the Holy Spirit be 'taken out of the way' before the return of Christ?

Answer: The martyrdom / beheading of the saints. ( Revelation 12:11; 13:7-8,15; 15:2; 20:4 )


Order of Events:

~ a falling away
~ Christians martyred
~ man of sin revealed
~ man of sin operates "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
~ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ / our gathering together unto him / man of sin destroyed

 

[GaryA]

YAWN...

..........

 

[Hepsibah]

In 2 Thessalonians 2: 1- 12

Man of sin--- Antichrist ( he comes first and does not perform signs)

Lawless one ----- False Prophet ( he comes second and he performs signs )

We get this information from Revelation 13:1:1-18

So the order of events is

1. Man of sin is revealed to the world when he sits in the temple of God
2. The day of Christ happens
3. The lawless one is revealed with signs who will endorse the man of sin

 

[pottersclay]

Hello I am new here but in my studies I have found the picture of the church in heaven in rev5 :9-10 I mean who else could sing that song? Also tHess 5:2 and 2Peter 3:10 talks about coming as a thief in the night, why would a thief give a warning like a trumpet sound?
Just to add old testament scripture lot was taken out of the city beforehand and if you look at the genealogy of Seth gen 5 Enoch which means (walked with God) was taken and never died his son Methuselah which means ( his death shall bring) then Noah which means comfort. In Jude Enoch was the first person to prophesy the second coming of christ.

 

[GaryA]

How could the 'presence' of the Holy Spirit be 'taken out of the way' before the return of Christ?

Answer: The martyrdom / beheading of the saints. ( Revelation 12:11; 13:7-8,15; 15:2; 20:4 )


Order of Events:

~ a falling away
~ Christians martyred
~ man of sin revealed
~ man of sin operates "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
~ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ / our gathering together unto him / man of sin destroyed

This is the true nature of the reality of the End Times Scenario.

Be ready.


Colossians 3:

[SUP]2[/SUP] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

 

[popeye]

How could the 'presence' of the Holy Spirit be 'taken out of the way' before the return of Christ?

Answer: The martyrdom / beheading of the saints. ( Revelation 12:11; 13:7-8,15; 15:2; 20:4 )

Nope.

1) That means the millions of past martyrs were killed in absence of the HS

2) You do not even realize that if all are killed (as they ,in fact,are) then who are the alive ones left to rapture?

You do not have a workable plan.

 

[popeye]

This is the true nature of the reality of the End Times Scenario.

Be ready.


Colossians 3:

[SUP]2[/SUP] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Yes,it is a good lesson that in mat 25 the 5 wise virgins were beheaded by a mystery man,then they were caught up to the groom.

Good that you pointed that out..........oh.....wait......... What bible are you looking at?

 

[GaryA]

Nope.

1) That means the millions of past martyrs were killed in absence of the HS { You are saying that the presence of the Holy Spirit was not on the earth during the Dark Ages??? Nonsense!!! }

2) You do not even realize that if all are killed (as they ,in fact,are) then who are the alive ones left to rapture? { There are those... }

You do not have a workable plan.

It's God's plan - not mine...

"You are not listening..." ( 'reading' )

( I have shown you already. )

 

[GaryA]

Yes,it is a good lesson that in mat 25 the 5 wise virgins were beheaded by a mystery man,then they were caught up to the groom.

Good that you pointed that out..........oh.....wait......... What bible are you looking at?

popeye:

Nothing you say in this thread is going to mean anything to me unless and until you first give a [ good and reasonable ] response to post #3570.

Just sayin'...

 

[Hepsibah]

Rapture

Matthew 25:10
While they went to buy oil the bridegroom came and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding and the door was shut

Time: Midnight (Matthew 25:6)




Open Coming

Luke 12:35
You yourselves be like men who wait for their master when he will return from the wedding that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately

Time: second or third watch (Luke 12:38)


During Rapture The Lord comes at midnight as the Bridegroom to take the bride for wedding
Then The Lord returns from the wedding and openly comes to take the rest.


Those people left in the rapture will know that those prepared have gone to the wedding. They will now have to wait for the master to return from the wedding

 

[popeye]

Order of Events:

~ a falling away
~ Christians martyred
~ man of sin revealed
~ man of sin operates "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"
~ the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ / our gathering together unto him / man of sin destroyed

Postrib talking points. Stop acting like you have anything new or special.

Man of sin revealed is nothing new,falling away is nothing new ,those left behind and beheaded is nothing new,and Jesus coming postrib is nothing new.

Common postrib talking points.

Has zero conflict with rapture being pretrib