I am a Seventh Day Adventist, Ask Me.

[SoulWeaver]

If y'all ever get tired from this, everyone is invited here
As for me, I believe you cant hammer things into people's heads, heads are just not designed that way. You can point out sources to learn, state yourself once, but that's about it.

 

[keeth]

Oh so this Prophet gets a pass? How handy that she don't have to answer for her clear and evident errors!

De 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Even more handy to not have to provide any accurate information concerning your accusations. You provide faulty information which cannot be addressed, then blame and accuse those trying to address your accusations of using this not to answer you. I'm sorry, but who is the twisted one here?

 

[Mitspa]

Of course the double talk of ellen g white is amazing! but these points are all contained with a multitude of false doctrines and other false prophecies ...of course the ministers of satan come cloaked as ministers of righteousness and can sometime speak some truth. Most folks who teach false doctrine have a very good cover and appearance to bring in their heresy. So if she says one day your saved by grace through faith and then the next words are putting folks under the works of the law...you know she really don't uphold grace and faith.

 

[keeth]

Keeth I see you are new here, welcome and I look forward to reading more of your insights. As you have encountered, there are some that only seek to antagonize, they go around starting fires all over the forum in hopes they keep you busy just putting out all the little fires. We know them by their fruit.

Yes, they exist on all message boards. While I have the time, I like to pint out some of their fruit. Thanks for the welcome.

 

[Mitspa]

Even more handy to not have to provide any accurate information concerning your accusations. You provide faulty information which cannot be addressed, then blame and accuse those trying to address your accusations of using this not to answer you. I'm sorry, but who is the twisted one here?

With every post I have given the address to her own writtings... anybody can look them up and decide for themselves.


Mrs. White claimed that the words she wrote came from God and were not to be changed:

"The word given me is, 'You are faithfully to reprove those who would mar the faith of the people of God. Write out the things which I shall give you, that they may stand as a witness to the truth till the end of time.' I said, 'If any of the citizens of Battle Creek wish to know what Mrs. White believes and teaches, let them read her published books. My labors would be naught should I preach another gospel. That which I have written is what the Lord has bidden me write. I have not been instructed to change that which I have sent out.'"[SUP]1[/SUP]​

If Mrs. White was not instructed to change what she sent out, then who gave the instructions? Who approved the alterations to her writings? Mrs. White said, "I am not to retract one word of the message I have borne."[SUP]2[/SUP] Despite this, a number of her words have been retracted and removed from later publications:

1. Statements referring to the shut door of salvation.
2. Statements which have been proven false by science, such as amalgamation.
3. An entire chapter of the Great Controversy (chapter 12 "God Honoreth the Humble").
4. Entire books have been taken out of print, such as An Appeal to Mothers, which was full of 19th century myths about the dangers of "self abuse".

[SIZE=+1] So who was authorized to change Mrs. White's writings? [/SIZE]

James White played a key role in the development of his wife's writings. Being more educated and skilled as a writer, James assisted Ellen in editing and reviewing her writings. His most infamous editing episode was his publication of the pamphlet entitled Experiences and Views in 1851. In that pamphlet, James republished his wife's earlier visions, but deleted out 19% of the text--primarily those parts dealing with the shut door of salvation. The deletion of the material created such an uproar among the brethren, the fledgling church was almost split.
James insisted that his wife's writings be "polished" before they were published by the "last touches of the old gentleman's pencil."[SUP]3[/SUP] Just how much of the "old gentleman's" penciling became part of the "inspired" testimonies is impossible to determine.
In 1992, the Review revealed the practice of the staff of the White Estate in revising and altering the writings of Ellen White. Paul A. Gordon, then secretary of the White Estate, writes:

"Is it legitimate to change, abridge, or simplify Ellen White's writings? The answer is yes. We can change, abridge, or simplify the words, but we do not have license to change the intended message. Here's why: Seventh-day Adventists do not hold to verbal inspiration. That means we do not believe that God dictated the words for Ellen White to use. ... In the years since Mrs. White's death in 1915, more than 50 new compilations or editions of Ellen White's books have been prepared by the E.G. White Estate. In every case--including editions that have been abridged, condensed, or simplified--the intended message has never been lost, only the wording has been changed."[SUP]4[/SUP]​

Apparently the process of altering and changing Mrs. White's writings is a longstanding practice. In 1883 a resolution was passed by the General Conference creating a committee to oversee revisions in her writings:

"33.WHEREAS, Many of these testimonies were written under the most unfavorable circumstances, the writer being too heavily pressed with anxiety and labor to devote critical thought to the grammatical perfection of the writings, and they were printed in such haste as to allow these imperfections to pass uncorrected; and, WHEREAS, we believe the light given by God to His servants is by the enlightenment of the mind, thus imparting the thoughts, and not (except in rare cases) the very words in which the ideas should be expressed; therefore, Resolved, That in the republication of these volumes, such verbal changes be made as to remove the above-named imperfections, as far as possible, without in any measure changing the thought; and further,
34. Resolved, That this body appoint a committee of five to take charge of the republication of these volumes according to the above preambles and resolutions."[SUP]5[/SUP]​

Mrs. White's secretaries had a large role in preparing her works for publication. One of her secretaries, Fannie Bolton, once asked if it was proper for Mrs. White to get credit for her writings since they had to be "almost entirely changed" from their original form.[SUP]6[/SUP] In the 1919 conference on Ellen White, SDA college president W.W. Prescott mentions the changes he was involved in and how it left him with doubts regarding the inspiration of Mrs. White's writings:

"Here's my difficulty. I have gone over this (The Great Controversy) and suggested changes that ought to be made in order to correct statements. These changes have been accepted. My personal difficulty will be to retain faith on those things that I cannot deal with on that basis. ... If we correct it here and correct it there, how are we going to stand with it in the other places?"[SUP]7[/SUP]
​

 

[keeth]

The more you read the worse it gets! And ellen G white makes clear that its her doctrine that established the SDA group.


"Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with them, and we studied and prayed earnestly. Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me." (Testimonies for the Church Containing Letters to Physicians and Ministers, pp. 56-57)

All you have revealed is that people who came together continually to study the bible and ask for God's guidance that they might preach and teach it with His power, were given God's guidance in doing the same. Let me highlight what you did not.

"Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with them, and we studied and prayed earnestly. Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more,"the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me." (Testimonies for the Church Containing Letters to Physicians and Ministers, pp. 56-57)

We all know that God reveals truth to His prophets. The above proves nothing regarding the truth of that received or not. The bible itself will determine its truthfulness or not. Not you, or me, or anyone else. If you want to prove her false, prove it from scripture.

 

[Lynx]

For some reason an old Chris Rice song keeps running through my head...

"Draw your lines and choose your sides
Cause many things are worth the fight
But louder doesn't make you right
You don't have to yell
No, you don't have to yell"

 

[keeth]

Good Im glad to have spoken against this wicked and false prophet! And to stand before the Lord as He says "well done my good and faithful servant"

That remains to be seen of course. We'll both be their. I hope and certainly pray it will be well for both of us at that time.

 

[keeth]

What did jesus do when he taught people. Curiously...he almost always met a need first.

Almost. Yet his enemies hated Him so very much.

 

[JustinFromTwinCities]

The only way this thread will become truly fruitful. Is if you SDAs stop positioning yourself defensively. Please share your own thoughts on Ellen White and the other founders of the SDA church. Share with us the most easily/frequently misunderstood and difficult to understand teachings, and explain how you have come to realize they align with Scripture. In an SDA thread, I am not here to debate the Bible as to why you believe we should keep the Sabbath (I can believe I should keep the Sabbath without being SDA).

 

[keeth]

On page 78 of the first SDA Church Manual one of the questions asked to prospective baptisimal candidates is: "Do you believe the Bible doctrine of 'spiritual gifts' in the church, and do you believe in the gift of the Spirit of prophecy which has been manifested in the remnant church through the ministry and writings of Mrs. Ellen G. White?" (1932)

"As God's messenger, Ellen White spoke with decision and authority. 'I speak that which I have seen, and which I know to be true.'* Letter 4, 1896. 'I implore you [the church members] not to treat this matter with your criticisms and speculations but as the voice of God to you.'-Letter 36, 1890. The messages were not to be parried..." (Ellen G. White: The Human Interest Story, Arthur L. White)

"Ellen White's writings cannot be on the same level with the Bible's authority, even though her inspiration is qualitatively the same. ... As a postcannonical manifestation of the prophetic gift, then, Ellen White merits full obedience...the canon of Scripture is the highest authority and Mrs. White's postcannonical writings are a lesser authority, but the obedience both deserve is the same." (Jud Lake, Ellen White Under Fire, pp. 160-161)

As I have already shared from EGW herself, the word of God is the final authority above all else. Anyone who adds or takes away from this, is a liar.

 

[JustinFromTwinCities]

By staying on the defensive, you are making us who want to examine the teachings of the founders look like offensive attackers in some Holy war lol.

 

[keeth]

Well that isn't true in my case at all. I'm surprised you do not understand what Mitspa and I have said during the last 24 hours. A SDA is one who follows the teachings of Ellen White. A Mormon follows the teachings of Joseph Smith. A Christian follows the teachings of Christ. A muslim follows the teachings of Muhammad.

Luke 6:39And He also spoke a parable to them: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40"A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher."

That is the reason why it is so important to focus on Ellen White in this thread, indeed everything she said should be carefully weighed against Scripture. Word for word even.

Now I asked gotime where it is I should read the teachings of Ellen White. Because that is all I need to do in order to understand if she is from God or is of Satan. I have not gotten around to doing it yet, I have been asleep since I wrote that post.

But the point is this, in the search for truth we cannot have selective vision. It would be awesome if you guys posted the most difficult or most frequently misunderstood sayings of Ellen White and the other founders. And then explain how you have come to discover they align with the truth of the Word of God.

If you do this, you will either confirm that the founders were indeed great men and women of God who deserve to be followed and greatly increase my respect for the teachings of the SDA church. Or you will come to realize that you are not in fact followers of it's founders and continue to practice your Bible based beliefs under a different name/denomination

The writings of EGW may be obtained by all. If you want to know what she taught, get her writings. It is not possible to keep up with the unending accusations of the unlearned. I've been doing this for many years. To date, the accusers never bother responding or admitting when they are proved wrong or to have misquoted EGW or twisted her words. They simply move on to another accusation. This is fine, it will all come out in the laundry. All of our words will be judged.

Mt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

No one will ever be saved by being of this or that denomination. I could care less about defending this or that denomination. I would leave the SDA church in a heartbeat if I find it to be untrue. I will also reject EGW as a prophetess of God if I find this to be untrue. Having read her works extensively though, I am convinced she was. I have no family or other tradition to uphold by remaining an SDA. I remain one because they speak the truth in closer accordance with scripture than any other I have heard or studied. Let all tradition be forsaken and damned in the pursuit of truth. It is most often a hindrance upon the same. The following internet site might be of interest to you. It addresses many accusations and issues against EGW.

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/issues.asp

 

[JesusLives]

Ellen G white teaches satan is at the throne of God!

"Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them (Christians) look up to the throne, and pray, 'Father, give us Thy Spirit.' Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence ..." (Early Writings, p. 56).


Do any of you guys who think ellen g is a prophetess ..want to defend this statement by her?

Just for you my friend Mitspa - all I ask is that you read the entire entry including your entry in context....Please just for the Blond and then help me to understand what I am not understanding.....Thanks my friend.

[h=1]Early Writings : Page 54[/h][h=2]End of the 2300 Days[/h]I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." Before the throne I saw the Advent people--the church and the world. I saw two companies, one bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the other stood uninterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus; then He would look to His Father, and appear to be pleading

Page 55

with Him. A light would come from the Father to the Son and from the Son to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. But few would receive this great light. Many came out from under it and immediately resisted it; others were careless and did not cherish the light, and it moved off from them. Some cherished it, and went and bowed down with the little praying company. This company all received the light and rejoiced in it, and their countenances shone with its glory.

I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace.

Page 56

I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children.

I realize that this was long....and it is a shame that most won't take the time to read it. But when a statement is taken out of context then it appears to have a totally separate meaning.....Please at least read the statement in context and then lets talk.

 

[keeth]

Okay if it not pointless what has been achieved on this thread except accusation which you have just railed my way, btw? You are no better at all than those who say she is a false prophet. I believe she is a false prophet but I at least said to everyone, look into her writings and read it for yourself.

I am not better than anyone, nor have I accused you of anything. I simply pointed out that addressing error is not a waste of time. My apologies if you think I accused you of anything. No apologies for disagreeing though. We all have that right.

 

[keeth]

Of course the double talk of ellen g white is amazing! but these points are all contained with a multitude of false doctrines and other false prophecies ...of course the ministers of satan come cloaked as ministers of righteousness and can sometime speak some truth. Most folks who teach false doctrine have a very good cover and appearance to bring in their heresy. So if she says one day your saved by grace through faith and then the next words are putting folks under the works of the law...you know she really don't uphold grace and faith.

Bla bla bla. Quotes please, that may be examined. You may think your word is as God's, but I certainly do not.

 

[JesusLives]

Ellen G white teaches satan is at the throne of God!

"Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them (Christians) look up to the throne, and pray, 'Father, give us Thy Spirit.' Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence ..." (Early Writings, p. 56).


Do any of you guys who think ellen g is a prophetess ..want to defend this statement by her?

I have answered you in post #474.

 

[keeth]

With every post I have given the address to her own writtings... anybody can look them up and decide for themselves.


Mrs. White claimed that the words she wrote came from God and were not to be changed:

"The word given me is, 'You are faithfully to reprove those who would mar the faith of the people of God. Write out the things which I shall give you, that they may stand as a witness to the truth till the end of time.' I said, 'If any of the citizens of Battle Creek wish to know what Mrs. White believes and teaches, let them read her published books. My labors would be naught should I preach another gospel. That which I have written is what the Lord has bidden me write. I have not been instructed to change that which I have sent out.'"[SUP]1[/SUP]​

If Mrs. White was not instructed to change what she sent out, then who gave the instructions? Who approved the alterations to her writings? Mrs. White said, "I am not to retract one word of the message I have borne."[SUP]2[/SUP] Despite this, a number of her words have been retracted and removed from later publications:

1. Statements referring to the shut door of salvation.
2. Statements which have been proven false by science, such as amalgamation.
3. An entire chapter of the Great Controversy (chapter 12 "God Honoreth the Humble").
4. Entire books have been taken out of print, such as An Appeal to Mothers, which was full of 19th century myths about the dangers of "self abuse".

[SIZE=+1] So who was authorized to change Mrs. White's writings? [/SIZE]

James White played a key role in the development of his wife's writings. Being more educated and skilled as a writer, James assisted Ellen in editing and reviewing her writings. His most infamous editing episode was his publication of the pamphlet entitled Experiences and Views in 1851. In that pamphlet, James republished his wife's earlier visions, but deleted out 19% of the text--primarily those parts dealing with the shut door of salvation. The deletion of the material created such an uproar among the brethren, the fledgling church was almost split.
James insisted that his wife's writings be "polished" before they were published by the "last touches of the old gentleman's pencil."[SUP]3[/SUP] Just how much of the "old gentleman's" penciling became part of the "inspired" testimonies is impossible to determine.
In 1992, the Review revealed the practice of the staff of the White Estate in revising and altering the writings of Ellen White. Paul A. Gordon, then secretary of the White Estate, writes:

"Is it legitimate to change, abridge, or simplify Ellen White's writings? The answer is yes. We can change, abridge, or simplify the words, but we do not have license to change the intended message. Here's why: Seventh-day Adventists do not hold to verbal inspiration. That means we do not believe that God dictated the words for Ellen White to use. ... In the years since Mrs. White's death in 1915, more than 50 new compilations or editions of Ellen White's books have been prepared by the E.G. White Estate. In every case--including editions that have been abridged, condensed, or simplified--the intended message has never been lost, only the wording has been changed."[SUP]4[/SUP]​

Apparently the process of altering and changing Mrs. White's writings is a longstanding practice. In 1883 a resolution was passed by the General Conference creating a committee to oversee revisions in her writings:

"33.WHEREAS, Many of these testimonies were written under the most unfavorable circumstances, the writer being too heavily pressed with anxiety and labor to devote critical thought to the grammatical perfection of the writings, and they were printed in such haste as to allow these imperfections to pass uncorrected; and, WHEREAS, we believe the light given by God to His servants is by the enlightenment of the mind, thus imparting the thoughts, and not (except in rare cases) the very words in which the ideas should be expressed; therefore, Resolved, That in the republication of these volumes, such verbal changes be made as to remove the above-named imperfections, as far as possible, without in any measure changing the thought; and further,
34. Resolved, That this body appoint a committee of five to take charge of the republication of these volumes according to the above preambles and resolutions."[SUP]5[/SUP]​

Mrs. White's secretaries had a large role in preparing her works for publication. One of her secretaries, Fannie Bolton, once asked if it was proper for Mrs. White to get credit for her writings since they had to be "almost entirely changed" from their original form.[SUP]6[/SUP] In the 1919 conference on Ellen White, SDA college president W.W. Prescott mentions the changes he was involved in and how it left him with doubts regarding the inspiration of Mrs. White's writings:

"Here's my difficulty. I have gone over this (The Great Controversy) and suggested changes that ought to be made in order to correct statements. These changes have been accepted. My personal difficulty will be to retain faith on those things that I cannot deal with on that basis. ... If we correct it here and correct it there, how are we going to stand with it in the other places?"[SUP]7[/SUP]
​

Bla bla bla. My response you quoted was in reference to your regarding Early writings pg. 57. What you said was on that page, was not there. Your information was and is wrong. I will not waste time running around the internet to check out every accusation you bring forward. If you are not going to address the replies I give, why would I continue following your bread crumbs to nowhere.

 

[keeth]

The only way this thread will become truly fruitful. Is if you SDAs stop positioning yourself defensively. Please share your own thoughts on Ellen White and the other founders of the SDA church. Share with us the most easily/frequently misunderstood and difficult to understand teachings, and explain how you have come to realize they align with Scripture. In an SDA thread, I am not here to debate the Bible as to why you believe we should keep the Sabbath (I can believe I should keep the Sabbath without being SDA).

As I already stated, there is no end to the accusations. There are new ones all the time. If those who make them are not willing to follow through a discussion about them, but continually hop from one to another without ever addressing any responses, what you are asking cannot be done. If you have a particular problem with something we believe, I will be glad to address it from scripture. Different people have different problems with what we believe. Some people obviously are not going to stand still long enough to address the issues they will continually spew out. If you have an issue you are actually willing to discuss, please do bring it forward.

 

[Karraster]

Wow, are false teachers now teaching satan is not before the throne of Almighty accusing us night and day? Wow, he is the accuser of the brethren, and Messiah is our intercessor pleading our case if we call on His Name, our Salvation and Deliverer!

EW was right in that regard. Read Job people!