THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
He died to set us free from this fallen world..to deliver us out of this present evil age...and He raised us up with Him so we could live above the fallen things of this world? That we might be one with Him and the Father and know the love the Father has for us... Abba Father :) He has given us the hidden name of God!

I must wonder what Laws. Traditions, and what religious ceremony Adam was required to follow before the fall..

Since this is the state God has placed those who have been adopted as his children are in.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
well, according to them, if do this this this, don't do this this this we are saved. nothing about love. nothing about faith. nothing about the fruits of the Sprit.
Yep... so this always been the great debate...from the beginning the Jews hated the gospel...from the beginning Cain hated Able because Able trusted in the Blood of the Lamb and cain tried to earn Gods blessing through works...Ables works where righteous...cains was wicked
 
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Mitspa

Guest

I must wonder what Laws. Traditions, and what religious ceremony Adam was required to follow before the fall..

Since this is the state God has placed those who have been adopted as his children are in.
Best I could tell was just to keep what God had freely given him... What did Paul teach that the devil deceived Eve from the simplicity ...
 
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passinthru

Guest
I myself am not justified through keeping them, because it's the Holy Spirit who helps me to do so.. by faith, that He is real, and that He is God, He forgave me giving me grace.. I still stumble, I'm not perfect... but I no longer live to sin, I live to serve Him, I don't live in hate, I live in love, I no longer live in pride, I live by humbleness and humility ...etc
Good post.
Hey folks all of us commit some type of sin. Wiling or not. He who says he has no sin is deceived ( goes for she's too lol). We ARE covered by Grace BUT....Ya can't con God :) . Someday all tears will be wiped away....all strife will be gone...all truth will become totally real to us all as the forces of division will be gone. That will b e a glorious time when all us kids can get together in TRUE unity with one another and God.
Even today the war has been won even though the battles continue.
The wisdom of men is foolishness to God.
When we see that the fruit of the Spirit is beginning to take second place in our lives it is a tip off that something is up.
 
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passinthru

Guest

I must wonder what Laws. Traditions, and what religious ceremony Adam was required to follow before the fall..

Since this is the state God has placed those who have been adopted as his children are in.
Adam ,,,, Don't eat of that Tree . Maybe we need to think about what 'trees' we tend to eat of today too. :)
 
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Mitspa

Guest
Good post.
Hey folks all of us commit some type of sin. Wiling or not. He who says he has no sin is deceived ( goes for she's too lol). We ARE covered by Grace BUT....Ya can't con God :) . Someday all tears will be wiped away....all strife will be gone...all truth will become totally real to us all as the forces of division will be gone. That will b e a glorious time when all us kids can get together in TRUE unity with one another and God.
Even today the war has been won even though the battles continue.
The wisdom of men is foolishness to God.
When we see that the fruit of the Spirit is beginning to take second place in our lives it is a tip off that something is up.
Hey Passin...I think he missed the point that he is not keeping them and that its only Gods grace that keeps him...but I know kinda what he is saying...but I think its important for believers to put all pretense of self-righteousness away because it produces a pride in the flesh that hinders our understanding of Gods grace and thankfulness for that grace... But we all grow in grace and knowledge...if we know its by grace :)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Let's not defame pork chops and bacon.

Remember old sis cow burps up her lunch and re-chews it. Yum. Sheep are not known to be very clean. Ever get down wind of their exhaust?

We won't discuss turkeys and chickens.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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passinthru

Guest
Hey Passin...I think he missed the point that he is not keeping them and that its only Gods grace that keeps him...but I know kinda what he is saying...but I think its important for believers to put all pretense of self-righteousness away because it produces a pride in the flesh that hinders our understanding of Gods grace and thankfulness for that grace... But we all grow in grace and knowledge...if we know its by grace :)
We are told not to be ignorant of the devices of the enemy. I am not directing this at anyone at all just saying. Did ya ever realize what deception is? We know who the deceiver is and we know he is a defeated foe and the father of lies. However...th eeneny uses deception to create divisions and so forth. There can be no deception unless a truth is mixed with a lie. Eve was deceived. Adam was not. We can be deceived when we lean on our own understanding or get so caught up in a debate that 'self' gets assaulted.....Pride?" What caused Lucifer's fall. Can we say that all sin comes back to putting self first in on eway or another? Food for thought for us all ..... I think most all here are part of the body of Christ. Hope so because if non beleivers are reading some of this stuff I question whether they will be drawn to Him or run away.
Love all you guys .... God is good!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Best I could tell was just to keep what God had freely given him... What did Paul teach that the devil deceived Eve from the simplicity ...

I see God walked with adam, in everything he did. taught him, loved him, and said rely on me to take care of your every need.

They experienced a father son relationship. God was his Abba
 
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passinthru

Guest
Let's not defame pork chops and bacon.

Remember old sis cow burps up her lunch and re-chews it. Yum. Sheep are not known to be very clean. Ever get down wind of their exhaust?

We won't discuss turkeys and chickens.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Blasphemy! How dare you refuse to discuss chicken and turkey!! Shame same. LOL.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Adam ,,,, Don't eat of that Tree . Maybe we need to think about what 'trees' we tend to eat of today too. :)
what I think people fail to understand.

When God said, do not eat of that tree, it is like our fathers telling us not to run in front of that car doing 60 miles an hour, the end reslut will not be good. on the day you do it, you will die.

God was not commanding him to do something, he was trying to spare him from something which would harm him. He was giving him a warning, not a command.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Yep... so this always been the great debate...from the beginning the Jews hated the gospel...from the beginning Cain hated Able because Able trusted in the Blood of the Lamb and cain tried to earn Gods blessing through works...Ables works where righteous...cains was wicked
Cain was also the first false teacher who pushed his works and expected God to receive it....."Jude"
 
Dec 12, 2013
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I see God walked with adam, in everything he did. taught him, loved him, and said rely on me to take care of your every need.

They experienced a father son relationship. God was his Abba
Even after Adam sinned God provided, shed the blood, covered Adam and Eve and they were still the children of God, yet paid the price in their physical lives...just like the chastisement found in Hebrews and it being directed at every Son whom the Lord receives....!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Even after Adam sinned God provided, shed the blood, covered Adam and Eve and they were still the children of God, yet paid the price in their physical lives...just like the chastisement found in Hebrews and it being directed at every Son whom the Lord receives....!

true, but he did not force adam to recieve his grace, cain is proof of this. Cain wanted to do it his own way (human good and religion) not Gods way
 
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passinthru

Guest
what I think people fail to understand.

When God said, do not eat of that tree, it is like our fathers telling us not to run in front of that car doing 60 miles an hour, the end reslut will not be good. on the day you do it, you will die.

God was not commanding him to do something, he was trying to spare him from something which would harm him. He was giving him a warning, not a command.
Could it be that the human side of us take a command as a bad thing or a burden to US. God's 'commands' are for our own good and that He may be glorified in us. Do we heed his 'commands' or lean unto our own understanding? Oh wretche dman that I am...the good that I would do I do not and the thing I would not do I do....but it is no longer me that does it is is th eold nature within me (major paraphrase). Is this an excuse by Paul? No! He is being upfront and honest. Can we twist such a statement to excuse our actions? Sure but when we do we are going down the wrong path again. Truth is truth....Lies plus truth is deception... willing disobedience is a step down from that. God loved Adam.... Adam disobeyed God. HE KNEW HE DID and felt guilt due to it.....He felt naked. " Who told you you were naked"? Some say that Adam and Eve were taken out of the garden due to love so they would not eat of th etree of life as that would have sealed the sin inside man forever. true? Dunno for sure but I do know that God's love held Jesus on the cross for all mankind and whosover ( that covers everyone) accepts this is born again into the family of God. It is not God's will that any should perish and a plan has been set in stone that has us covered. Can we lay aside all malice and spiritual pride enough to ' go ye ' into a lost and dying world and tell the masses ,as th esprit leads. that Jesus loves them right where they are? If not it seems that all is for naught and we have sunk to a point where the great commission can be quenched by spiritual pride and a lack of unity within the Body of Christ. God help us to hear that we may profess the goodness that you have bestowed on us while we were yet sinners.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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I myself am not justified through keeping them, because it's the Holy Spirit who helps me to do so.. by faith, that He is real, and that He is God, He forgave me giving me grace.. I still stumble, I'm not perfect... but I no longer live to sin, I live to serve Him, I don't live in hate, I live in love, I no longer live in pride, I live by humbleness and humility ...etc
and somewhere in all that ...you don't steal ...you don't kill...you don't covet...you are patient...you love the Lord....you do good to all men especially of the household of faith.....are these thing not contained in the law? so by following the Spirit one do the things contained in the law...are you now become under the law?....does Mitspa do these things....does EG do these things...I am almost certain they do....it does not put them under the law ...but if I do the same these guys put me under the law...
 
Dec 12, 2013
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true, but he did not force adam to recieve his grace, cain is proof of this. Cain wanted to do it his own way (human good and religion) not Gods way
You know I agree...God does not force his grace upon no man......we either receive it or we don't....period for sure......unlike Cain, I know my works are not good enough to earn me anything...and any work that may be done thru me is Jesus doing the work dia the Holy Spirit through me as a living sacrifice.....ALL glory goes to GOD the Father dia JESUS....period!
 
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ChristIsGod

Guest
Barnabas - A.D. 70 -
He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. -Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them. -We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.


Justin Martyr- 100 -168 AD - was martyred by beheading. His works are earliest sizeable Christian apologetics:
Man acts by his own free will and not by fate. (20) We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be…. For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for. (21)
But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unlesswe repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so.
But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded . . . to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death, shall by no means be saved. Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved [Justin Martyr, Dialogue Of Justin 47]


Didache, A.D.140 -
“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.


Hermas - Shepherd of Hermas - Didache, A.D.140 -
They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them. [Shepherd of Hermas, 2.7]
For the Lord has sworn by His glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which has been fixed, he will not be saved. For the repentance of the righteous has limits. Filled up are the days of repentance to all the saints. But to the unbeliever, repentance will be possible even to the last day… For the Lord has sworn by His Son, that those who denied their Lord have abandoned their life to despair.
And he said, “If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your house lose all hope of salvation . . . [Hermas. Pastor of Hermas. Book 1.4.1.]
“Hear now,” said he, “how wicked is the action of anger, and in what way it overthrows the servants of God by its action, and turns them from righteousness. But [anger] does not turn away those who are full of faith, nor does it act on them, for the power of the Lord is with them. [Book 1-2, Commandment Fourth, Chap. 1.]


Irenaeus - A.D. 156-180
“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” [Against Heresies 4.27.2]
It is not to those who are on the outside that he said these things, but to us – LEST WE SHOULD BE CAST FORTH FROM THE KINGDOM OF GOD, by doing any such thing.[ Against Heresies 4.27.4]
Knowing that WHAT PRESERVES HIS LIFE, NAMELY, OBEDIENCE TO GOD, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. [Against Heresies 4.39.1]
But with respect to obedience and doctrine we are not all the sons of God: those only are so who believe in Him and do His will. And those who do not believe, and do not obey His will, are sons and angels of the devil, because they do the works of the devil. [Against Heresies, Book 41, 2.]
Those who do not obey Him, but being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. [Against Heresies 4.41.3]
That eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” (Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1)


Tertullian - A.D. 150-220 -
1 John 2:19 - But what if a bishop, if a deacon, if a widow, if a virgin, if a doctor, if even a martyr, have fallen from the rule (of faith), will heresies on that account appear to possess the truth? Do we prove the faith by the persons, or the persons by the faith? No one is wise, no one is faithful, no one excels in dignity, but the Christian; and no one is a Christian but he who perseveres even to the end. [Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, Chap 3.]
But the world returned unto sin; in which point baptism would ill be compared to the deluge. And so it is destined to fire; just as the man too is, who after baptism renews his sins: so that this also ought to be accepted as a sign for our admonition. [Tertullian, On Repentance, 2.9]
For do not many afterwards fall out of [grace]? Is not this gift taken away from many? But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwillingly. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? Is not this gift taken away from many?” [On Repentance, Ch. 6]
God had foreseen that faith even after baptism would be endangered. He saw that most persons after obtaining salvation would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.The world returned to sin…and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins.” [On Baptism, Ch. 8]
“We ought indeed to walk so holily, and with so entire substantially of faith, as to be confident and secure in regard of our own conscience, desiring that it may abide in us to the end. Yet, we should not presume [that it will]. For he who presumes, feels less apprehension. He who feels less apprehension, takes less precaution. He who takes less precaution, runs more risk. Fear is the foundation of salvation. Presumption is the impediment to fear…More useful, then, is it to apprehend that we may possibly fail, than to presume that we cannot. For apprehending will lead us to fear, fear to caution, and caution to salvation. On the other hand, if we presume, there will be neither fear nor caution to save us.” [- Book 2, Chapter 2]
“He saw that most persons after obtaining salvation would be lost again, by soiling the wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches.” [Scorpiace, Ch. 6]


Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195 -
He who hopes for everlasting rest knows also that the entrance to it is toilsome and narrow. So let him who has once received the gospel not turn back.
God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out. Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195







And then there was AUGUSTINE = Catholicism & Calvin
 
Mar 28, 2014
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well, according to them, if do this this this, don't do this this this we are saved. nothing about love. nothing about faith. nothing about the fruits of the Sprit.
love is about doing....faith is about doing....fruits of the spirit is about doing....
 
Sep 30, 2014
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Hey Passin...I think he missed the point that he is not keeping them and that its only Gods grace that keeps him...but I know kinda what he is saying...but I think its important for believers to put all pretense of self-righteousness away because it produces a pride in the flesh that hinders our understanding of Gods grace and thankfulness for that grace... But we all grow in grace and knowledge...if we know its by grace :)
If your in the Spirit you don't need the law, the law recognize sin, it arouses sin. If we live in the Spirit, we don't worry about the flesh, Paul explained it well in Romans 6,7,8... Then end result is in 8, walking in the Spirit.. No one can keep the 613 laws but Yahshua simplified them but made them stiffer, why He said He didn't come to destroy but fulfill.

Matthew 22:34-40


34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Love Your Enemies
…43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,



John 13:34-35


34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”


So these are part of the Commandments ...

If anyone thinks there under the old law of the 613 ... Read John 6, and Romans 14