THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Atwood]

Once again first of all you have to understand the difference in sin and the willful sinner \

Actually the Bible demands absolute obedience. You don't get a pass based on not being as bad a sinner as you might be.

Howbeit if ye fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

 

[Mitspa]

if we sin we know where to go and what to do...
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Hebrews 4:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Sure. we must admit we are sinners...and that's a great promise but its not a conditional promise based on a confession of each individual sin...Paul never taught that...He taught we had to be honest about our sinful condition and not pretend we keep the law...which is what John is saying also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Those verses are posted in hopes that someday you will read context, context, context -

I did read context.

Those who sin, whether they are under the law or not. will be judged equally.

Yet your using it to somehow prove one can lose salvation, which is not in context at all.

to use your reply in another thread - ie. not you pulling one verse that you consistently misinterpret. You miss the best of Paul's writings by doing so to All of his writings, I fear.

No Paul is NOT writing about those that "trust in the law" in those verses 2:5-16.

Your chosen beliefs have clouded your eyes and understanding to more than half of what Paul has written and out of those 12 verses, you both have only seen one that you have both misinterpreted because you're pulling it out of the context of that one dialogue, within that chpt.

Hm, hm, hm. That's the whole of the problem with having an opinion that blinds one to 3/4ths of the New Testament. Your belief is doing just that. You have your very limited verses that you post over and over and over again and leave actually more than 3/4ths out.

I'm saying this because I DO care and though I tire of the name calling - such as "arrogant" when I post these types of verses that commend obedience and being told that I am "boasting" though I posted Romans 8 more times than I can count, even this day to Mispa ... yet - the names and slurs will continue as long as I continue to post Sola Scriptura. I told Mispa that this morning. Even Just Sola Scriptura gets accusations and name throwing to begin.

So be it.

"I'm" not The Word of GOD and it won't be me that we'll all have to stand before to give an account of what we've done with the Word of God ..... it'll be The Word of GOD made flesh and Who said that not one word of what proceeded from the mouth of GOD will ever cease to stand and we stand or fall according to what we've done with HIM - The Word of God made flesh.

so lets see what Paul said..and take him in context.

2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.


Do you see me judging anyone of sin?
Do you see me trying to shove law down someones throughts, to prove they are a sinner?

This verse is not talking to me, it is talking to all the lawyers in here who are judging people like me of loving my sin, which is a lie!

2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?

again, do you see me judging people for sin, pr judging people of not obeying gods commands, this is not me, nor is it written to me, it is written to those who are judging us. as loving our sin.


4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Do you see me despising Gods forbearance, and longsuffering of God. Which causes one to have the ability to repent? No, I practice and teach this. those who teach one can lose salvation are who this is spoken to. they teach God has no longsiffering and forebearance.

Do you see me trying to promote myself and my good works? No way, I seek to honor and glorify God in whatever I do. It is not about me and how God I am, or about you and how bad you are. it is about God. and only God

8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Who is this, but those who teach the law. to puff themselves up, when they can not even admit that the law still curses them, because they are not perfect. they place themselves ABOVE the law. even though they claim they practice the law.

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

It does not matter to God who you are or what you are. What is your heart attitude? that is what matters.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

It does not matter if you have law or not. if you have sinned, the curse of the law condemns you

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

self explanitory. I do nto need the law to do righteous works.

 

[Mitspa]

no problem with that....was talking about the law producing sin...

Didn't say that.. the bible says it produces all manner of evil desires (lust) because of the sin already in the flesh...it makes sin come alive and have power over those under law.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nobody is without sin, that would be a lie to say one is......

then how can you say you love 24/7, because if you say this, you claim to be without sin.

 

[Atwood]

All of you who claim to be Christian, yet constantly bearing false witness against others by constantly saying they said something they did not say.

I obey our Lord Jesus Christ out of love and respect for Him for what He did for us, and I pray and hope all of you do the same.

So you and the few others can keep posting your false statements of things that others have not said, that will continue to show others your true nature. For I do not answer to other men, I answer to the Lord our God.

If I misquote, you post the misquote, or retract. Don't up & say you are being misquoted when no quote is made, but it is said, "It seems to me that . . . ."

My prayer for you is that you recognize the depth of your depravity & trust the Lord Jesus with your destiny, to make you a new creature, and give you eternal life.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Paul is talking about himself being rejected as a teacher. Which everyone of us should be afraid of.

Why do you people want to boast of your works, and not the work of Christ? Can you do more in your lifetime that Christ did on the cross?

See Mitspa - as soon as I began to post Only Scripture, these are the type of replies that are received or given, as I was trying to tell you in that long post I wrote only to you. So to post Scripture Only is to be "boasting of our works and not Christ's". Do you see what I tried to tell you this morning? This is par for this man and some others. I told you that whenever I posted Scripture alone - these names and accusations are the replies -- not Scripture for Scripture and if Scripture is given, it's taken out of context and twisted/mistranslated.

And to this post -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104615-great-debate-law-grace-32.html#post1819876 <- that also gave 8 references to that word "reprobate" - I get this answer in the first line of EG's quote above.

8 Scripture references to that word "reprobate" and the man says it's ONLY about Paul being a "teacher".

How shallow can one read, Brother?

 

[Mitspa]

All of you who claim to be Christian, yet constantly bearing false witness against others by constantly saying they said something they did not say.

I obey our Lord Jesus Christ out of love and respect for Him for what He did for us, and I pray and hope all of you do the same.

So you and the few others can keep posting your false statements of things that others have not said, that will continue to show others your true nature. For I do not answer to other men, I answer to the Lord our God.

This is what you wrote Kenneth...

"which means not give into sin in order to receive the gift of salvation"

 

[kennethcadwell]

If He don't impute it why would he want you to confess it? No we confess for our own conscience and to stay in a place of truth with God...God gives grace to the humble but resist the proud...we often need to go to the throne of grace and acknowledge our weakness to draw strength from Gods grace. But its not a command its a promise to help the little children get established in Gods righteosuenss...Paul NEVER taught confession for sins ...he taught we was justified by faith even when we struggled in the flesh.

Even though some of you do not like this passage and want to change the context of it to fit a false understanding of it;

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

If you do not continue in the grace of the Lord our God you will not have salvation. How does one fall from grace, that's right by returning to willful unrepented sins. People want this to say only group only and not personal salvation, problem with that is that it go's hand and hand with Hebrews 3.


Hebrews 3:12-14


Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.


Once again we see if you do not hold to our original confidence, as in stay in God's grace, to the end then you will not have salvation. Scripture interprets scripture, if two people say the same thing then you can not twist one to say something different.

Question again; You do know that Paul did not write all of his epistles ???

 

[eternally-gratefull]

See Mitspa - as soon as I began to post Only Scripture, these are the type of replies that are received or given, as I was trying to tell you in that long post I wrote only to you. So to post Scripture Only is to be "boasting of our works and not Christ's". Do you see what I tried to tell you this morning? This is par for this man and some others. I told you that whenever I posted Scripture alone - these names and accusations are the replies -- not Scripture for Scripture and if Scripture is given, it's taken out of context and twisted/mistranslated.

And to this post -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104615-great-debate-law-grace-32.html#post1819876 <- that also gave 8 references to that word "reprobate" - I get this answer in the first line of EG's quote above.

8 Scripture references to that word "reprobate" and the man says it's ONLY about Paul being a "teacher".

How shallow can one read, Brother?

you have been here to long.

many of us know what you believe so we know WHY you post things you do. because you have posted them over and over and over and over and over.

 

[kennethcadwell]

This is what you wrote Kenneth...

"which means not give into sin in order to receive the gift of salvation"

Yes I know that is what I wrote, because to give into sin is the same as obeying it as your master.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I know that is what I wrote, because to give into sin is the same as obeying it as your master.

always?

so when I dosobeyed my parents. my parents were not my master? or is it that they were my master. and i just chose not to trust them in that particular time.

 

[Mitspa]

See Mitspa - as soon as I began to post Only Scripture, these are the type of replies that are received or given, as I was trying to tell you in that long post I wrote only to you. So to post Scripture Only is to be "boasting of our works and not Christ's". Do you see what I tried to tell you this morning? This is par for this man and some others. I told you that whenever I posted Scripture alone - these names and accusations are the replies -- not Scripture for Scripture and if Scripture is given, it's taken out of context and twisted/mistranslated.

And to this post -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104615-great-debate-law-grace-32.html#post1819876 <- that also gave 8 references to that word "reprobate" - I get this answer in the first line of EG's quote above.

8 Scripture references to that word "reprobate" and the man says it's ONLY about Paul being a "teacher".

How shallow can one read, Brother?

Look..brother ...we all have a point of view that we think is important..,. other want to talk about sin and how we are not supposed to sin ...which I agree and I promise I promote a level of godliness that only Gods Power can allow us to live...but to make an issue of behavior and not understand law and grace and how we can be empowered to live godly by grace...that we must die to the law and sin ...that law only increases sin...then I think talking about behavior is a little vain for folks that don't know how to walk in grace? I think you make some good points but maybe they belong in a place where folks have accepted the truth already and are not still in such bondage to the law and sins power?

 

[Mitspa]

Yes I know that is what I wrote, because to give into sin is the same as obeying it as your master.

To receive the gift of salvation? are you serious that you must control sin to receive the gift of salvation? do you want to defend that position... I don't think the most ardent legalist would make that claim... that's a complete rejection of the gospel.

 

[Mitspa]

Ro 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You have to believe on Him who justifies the ungodly...not he who justifies the godly..?

Ro 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ came to save sinners ..of which I am chief

 

[kennethcadwell]

always?

so when I dosobeyed my parents. my parents were not my master? or is it that they were my master. and i just chose not to trust them in that particular time.

Yes it is always making it your master if you do not repent of it and ask forgiveness of that sin.
The bible says those who do not turn from their sins and ask for forgiveness of them do that because they love darkness more than they love the light.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Those who do not make an effort to turn from there sins, and listen to the Holy Spirit's guidance when it tells them not to do something they shouldn't are those who love the darkness over the light. Now this is a work in progress and does not happen overnight, but it still is not a license to justify not confession or repenting of them. And a one time repentance back 10,15,20, or even 30 or more years ago does not cover sins you do today. Sorry but the bible does not say that, as Paul says you can become not pure again through sin. How can Paul say that if your sins are already covered years ago? He can't, but he does.

 

[Hizikyah]

Ro 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You have to believe on Him who justifies the ungodly...not he who justifies the godly..?

Ro 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ came to save sinners ..of which I am chief

Your picking and choosing, Abraham had faith AND works:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith AND WORKS.

Luke 11:28, "But He said: Yet, rather, blessed are those who hear the plan of Yahweh, and keep; guard, preserve, and obey, it!"

 

[Mitspa]

Even though some of you do not like this passage and want to change the context of it to fit a false understanding of it;

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

If you do not continue in the grace of the Lord our God you will not have salvation. How does one fall from grace, that's right by returning to willful unrepented sins. People want this to say only group only and not personal salvation, problem with that is that it go's hand and hand with Hebrews 3.


Hebrews 3:12-14


Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.


Once again we see if you do not hold to our original confidence, as in stay in God's grace, to the end then you will not have salvation. Scripture interprets scripture, if two people say the same thing then you can not twist one to say something different.

Question again; You do know that Paul did not write all of his epistles ???

I like that passage ...you would not like it if you knew what it really said...its a warning again of those who turn from faith and God grace back to the law...unbelief the law is not of faith!

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

wicked hearts of unbelief...the law is not of faith

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Here is how we know that we love God’s children: when we love God, we also do what he commands. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For loving God means obeying his commands. Moreover, his commands are not burdensome, [SUP]4 [/SUP]because everything which has God as its Father overcomes the world. And this is what victoriously overcomes the world: our trust. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Who does overcome the world if not the person who believes that Yeshua is the Son of God?

 

[Mitspa]

Your picking and choosing, Abraham had faith AND works:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith AND WORKS.

Luke 11:28, "But He said: Yet, rather, blessed are those who hear the plan of Yahweh, and keep; guard, preserve, and obey, it!"

Not works of the law...works of faith just like Rahab the harlot...you think she was keeping the law? lol