THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[newbirth]

So, Christ said to keep the Law, James says that if you break one, you are guilty of all. Which one of these statements is false?

keep up with the times Christ died so that we could be free from the law....

 

[Mitspa]

Romans 3:31, "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsoher seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Sure we uphold the law for its purpose "to make.all guilty before God". That they might turn to Christ and be justified by faith....and all that the law demanded is fulfilled in one word. Love and love alone. You don't uphold the law by saying you just keeps parts here and there or by saying you just have to try or that it Dont really curse those who break it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Why did Christ do it? Really? Was it to pay the price for us as Paul claims? Or was it rather to SHOW us the way? To show us HOW; how we must each pay the price by ourselves?

Paul's theory of salvation through Faith is very attractive, because it tells me that all has been covered and I'm free to do whatever I want. But as James will put it, Faith without Works is Dead. And Paul says that we can't just do anything we like so that Grace may abound (Romans 6:1).

So if you zoom-in on both views, they seem to agree on something, and that's the fact that I'm not completely off the hook. So if my claim that I am justified is nothing but utter nonsense unless my actions can back it up... and if my actions are not "acceptable" unless they're located within the boundaries of the Law, then shall we not say that whatever I say to myself does not really matter? (i.e. "I'm a man of Faith. I'm justified in Christ; etc.")

I suppose this is a very important debate... especially these days, when the freedom in Christ that we've been preaching for thousands of years seems to have brought about some "unintended" consequences. We're praying, asking God: "What did we do wrong? Where is the righteousness we were promised? Why does it all seem so... up-side-down?" Certainly the Spirit of God will reveal us quite a lot. I can only hope that we'll each be brave enough to drink from the cup when it is placed at the table before us.

Actually Paul did not say you can go on and do what ever you want, and that all your sins are covered no matter what you do. This was a twist on Paul's wording that the unlearned and unstable have done, as Peter pointed out.

What Paul did was actually warn believers of the dangers of continuing in and returning to a life of willful sins.
He tells those who continue to willfully sin they have no salvation, and he tells those who return to a life of willful sin that this lifestyle will lead them to death instead of eternal life unless they repent. He even says to the Galatians that because of false teaching of trying to be justified by the works of the mosaic law, they have fallen from grace. This means they no longer had salvation coming to them because they turned from the truth to follow after putting their faith in the written ordinances of the law.
Their faith shifted from being in the Lord, to going back to being in the law. Yet some will tell you to turn from God's grace is impossible, but Paul did not believe that nor did he preach it. He constantly preached salvation, then followed with a list of warnings to the believers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, Christ said to keep the Law, James says that if you break one, you are guilty of all. Which one of these statements is false?

Both are correct.

James says if you break one your cursed. (when taken with what Moses said, that anyone who does not obey ALL THE WORDS WRITTEN is cursed.

Christ said to love God, and your neighbor, if you do this, you will keep the law.

You do not believe what James said, or you would understand by what James said, you are STILL CURSED. and thus will never be worthy of salvation.

And you ignore what Jesus said about HOW one is to keep the law. by following the law of love

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is it possible for people to follow Commands out of love?

Could that be possible?

I did not ask you if it were possible. God sais not only yes, but it is the only way we can follow Gods commands.

I asked you how good you did it, do you do it 24/7 or not?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And yet to love all others is a command !!!

yes it is.. Even our enemy, which is not according to the letter.

 

[kennethcadwell]

keep up with the times Christ died so that we could be free from the law....

Yes, but what part of the law are we free from.
The 10 commandments, the written ordinances of the mosaic law, the sacrificing of animals for sins, the curses of the law.

We are free from the ordinances of the law that contain the animal sacrifices and the curses.
The moral laws of God we are still held in check in, if we continue to live in a willful sin making us enmity to God by not following His moral laws and commands. Our punishment will come at judgment by getting eternal punishment instead of eternal life.

 

[Hizikyah]

Sure we uphold the law for its purpose "to make.all guilty before God". That they might turn to Christ and be justified by faith....and all that the law demanded is fulfilled in one word. Love and love alone. You don't uphold the law by saying you just keeps parts here and there or by saying you just have to try or that it Dont really curse those who break it.

Proverbs 6:23, "For the commandments are a lamp, the Law is light, and reproofs of instruction are the way to life."

John (Yahchanan) 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

2 Timothy 3:5, "Having a form of holiness, but denying the authority of it--from such turn away!"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, but what part of the law are we free from.
The 10 commandments, the written ordinances of the mosaic law, the sacrificing of animals for sins, the curses of the law.

We are free from the ordinances of the law that contain the animal sacrifices and the curses.
The moral laws of God we are still held in check in, if we continue to live in a willful sin making us enmity to God by not following His moral laws and commands. Our punishment will come at judgment by getting eternal punishment instead of eternal life.

so why does the law not curse you, because you do not wilfully sin, yet curses someone else, Who does willfully sin. when James said even commiting the LEAST of all sin, brings you guilty under the law?

You both have sinned, you both have fallen short. You both have chosen to trust self and not God (which is what sin is)

what makes you more holy than him? and more worthy of eternal life than him?

 

[Mitspa]

I'm on my phone at work so hard to keep up and deal with long post but did I just read some onecalled the gospel "Paul's theory of salvation through faith". Even some of you guys who claim to keep parts of the law should rebuke that short of comment.

 

[kennethcadwell]

yes it is.. Even our enemy, which is not according to the letter.

The issue is that we are not to look at all that our Lord Jesus told us in the gospel books as a list of laws to follow.
That is the meaning of why He said He will write His commands on our heart. Because now we are to walk in those commands as a everyday way of life, and not a list of requirements/laws/commands.
This however does not make His teachings not a requirement, for they are a part of a believers life. And our Lord Jesus makes it clear that if these outer expressions, actions, and righteous works of love and obedience are not part of the believers life they are not His. Or as James puts it, they have a dead faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The issue is that we are not to look at all that our Lord Jesus told us in the gospel books as a list of laws to follow.
That is the meaning of why He said He will write His commands on our heart. Because now we are to walk in those commands as a everyday way of life, and not a list of requirements/laws/commands.
This however does not make His teachings not a requirement, for they are a part of a believers life. And our Lord Jesus makes it clear that if these outer expressions, actions, and righteous works of love and obedience are not part of the believers life they are not His. Or as James puts it, they have a dead faith.

yes, so they were never saved to begin with.

yet people use these same excuses to prove one can LOSE salvation. yet these things do not say such.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm on my phone at work so hard to keep up and deal with long post but did I just read some onecalled the gospel "Paul's theory of salvation through faith". Even some of you guys who claim to keep parts of the law should rebuke that short of comment.

wow I missed that who said that?

 

[Hizikyah]

I'm on my phone at work so hard to keep up and deal with long post but did I just read some onecalled the gospel "Paul's theory of salvation through faith". Even some of you guys who claim to keep parts of the law should rebuke that short of comment.

Really.

So because I didnt rebuke a post I did not see im in error.

Stop for a second and look at what your doing.

STRAWMAN

 

[kennethcadwell]

so why does the law not curse you, because you do not wilfully sin, yet curses someone else, Who does willfully sin. when James said even commiting the LEAST of all sin, brings you guilty under the law?

You both have sinned, you both have fallen short. You both have chosen to trust self and not God (which is what sin is)

what makes you more holy than him? and more worthy of eternal life than him?

I have been free from the curses of the law, through my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Knowing that He will continue to cover my sins with His blood, if I continue to confess my sins to Him asking for forgiveness of them.
And yes even the smallest sin makes you guilty, what cleanses you and makes you not guilty is repented of it and asking forgiveness of that sin. If you do that the Lord Jesus makes it clear that you are not to have it used against no more.

Our society has missed that when they still hold ones crime (sin) against them even after they have served their time in jail or prison.

Yes all people sin, but like I have said before the difference comes on rather you repent and ask forgiveness of those sins.
I did not say I am more worthy then another for salvation, that is your words again. Saying something again I did not say.

Through our sins we are all guilty;

If you repent and ask forgiveness of that sin/sins then you are covered by His blood, and deemed innocent at judgment.

If you don't repent and ask forgiveness of that sin/sins then you are not covered by His blood, and still guilty at judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have been free from the curses of the law, through my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Knowing that He will continue to cover my sins with His blood, if I continue to confess my sins to Him asking for forgiveness of them.
And yes even the smallest sin makes you guilty, what cleanses you and makes you not guilty is repented of it and asking forgiveness of that sin. If you do that the Lord Jesus makes it clear that you are not to have it used against no more.

Our society has missed that when they still hold ones crime (sin) against them even after they have served their time in jail or prison.

Yes all people sin, but like I have said before the difference comes on rather you repent and ask forgiveness of those sins.
I did not say I am more worthy then another for salvation, that is your words again. Saying something again I did not say.

Through our sins we are all guilty;

If you repent and ask forgiveness of that sin/sins then you are covered by His blood, and deemed innocent at judgment.

If you don't repent and ask forgiveness of that sin/sins then you are not covered by His blood, and still guilty at judgment.

did jesus not die for my sin before I was even born?

you mentioned jail.. did jesus take my punishment (jail term) or did he not?

it is not like jesus died for my sin after I commited it, he paid for it before I was even born.

why do we want to keep crucifying Christ all over again?

it is like you excuse your sin as long as you do something, and someone else does not get away with it because he does not do something (ar actually you assume they did nothing)

can a child of God sin, and not be chastened by God, or KNOW it is a sin?

I think not.

if you have been freed from the curse of the law. the law can never curse you again, if it can, you have not been freed from the curse of the law. you are still under the law.

 

[Keeper]

...
Their faith shifted from being in the Lord, to going back to being in the law.

But, could the matter of Faith vs. Actions be summed up as such: It is possible to be in the Law without being in the Lord (i.e. even if you obey the law, you're still not saved); but it is not possible to be in the Lord without being in the Law. (i.e. you cannot claim to be in Christ unless your actions can back you up on that.)

Would that be a fair characterization of Faith and Actions in regards to the matter of Salvation?

And if yes, then why did Christ really do it? Why did he die? Because I have a feeling that he endured the sufferings all the way in order to show us what true repentance is. I remember when the sons of Zebedee asked if they could sit by his side in his kingdom, he asked John: "Are you sure you can drink from the cup I'm bound to drink?" Then after John's reply, the Lord goes on to say: "As a matter of fact you will... [but as for who sits at my right or my left, that's not up to me.]"

I have a feeling that we were not called to follow him all his life, and then just bail on him during his last 11 hours or so (from the time the came to pick him up in Gethsemane, around 4 a.m. to the minute he breathed his last, around 3 p.m.) Only Peter stuck around, even if he wouldn't go all the way either. It's certainly because his own time hadn't come yet, coz we all know how his own story ends.

No one will see the Father unless they're Baptized of the Spirit and FIRE. I have a feeling the Master's final 11 hours was him telling us: "Watch closely. This is how it's supposed to be... and this is how it'll actually have to be, for each one of you. If of course you're brave enough to go all the way."

 

[Mitspa]

can yo point out who is going back to the law...???Paul was talking primarily about circumcision...which was the requirement for inclusion under the Mosaic law...those who were baptised into Christ were being compelled by the Jews to be circumcised to be included into the church...the law says do not kill, do not steal, do not covet ...you make it look as if one teaches do not kill. do not steal or covet has gone back to the law...that is not what Paul is teaching...

. The law is one whole. Its every jot and tittle...that's Paul s point when he says that unless you keep "all this written in the book of the law". Or else your under the curse of the law...

 

[notuptome]

The law can only show your need for grace. Grace does not do away with the law but grace fulfills the law and satisfies the penalty the law demands.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[john832]

keep up with the times Christ died so that we could be free from the law....

Oh yeah, what was I thinking, killing, adultery, theft and lusting are no longer sins.