Paul And James in Total, Complete Agreement On Works

[eternally-gratefull]

1) "Faith and "faith only" are two completely different things.

there is no such thing as faith only. Thats only in your head. A person that rejects the word of CHrist do not have faith, they can claim they have faith all they want (like james said) but that does not make it true.

2) no one can add or take from the word of God.

3) so how does one end up with 'faith only'?

When they have no faith at all. Either do not believe outright, or only a mere belief, but no faith.

Abraham was saved by faith, proven by the fact he did those works. But he was not saved by those works. Paul makes this clear in romans 4. if he was saved by works, he has somethign to boast. He could go around and say, Hey, I went to sacrifice my son, I left my family and home and went to a strange place. I did this, I did that, and because of it, God saved me.

 

[elf3]

Sea thing has me blocked so he can't read this. But just ask him one question....."how are we justified before God" not judged but justified.

 

[SeaBass]

God I need to place you back in the ignore bin, Same old stuff, Same old nonsense. I do not have patience for these childish games

Show me where the bible says YOU CAN GRAFT YOURSELF INTO THE VINE.

I simply have asked YOU how does one become attached to the Vine? We both agree God attaches the branch to the vine but WHO and WHY does God attach one and not another?

 

[SeaBass]

By doing 409876302 and ONE work....well maybe two, no three.....well I just don't know if I have done enough...what If I am one short....now I am sweating as I cannot know for sure....! <----workers for salvation

Justified by grace dia faith is what I will take any day.....and that being the FAITH OF JESUS!

What did God tell Abraham to do?

Did Abraham do it? Must have for it was by his obedient works he was justified.

You are trying to make obeying God something hard or impossible when it's not...."For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

 

[dcontroversal]

What did God tell Abraham to do?

Did Abraham do it? Must have for it was by his obedient works he was justified.

You are trying to make obeying God something hard or impossible when it's not...."For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

Yeah and the bible also states concerning Abraham...

1. Justified by faith without works
2. Had faith long before circumcision and the almost sacrifice of Isaac....WAKE up Sea Perch and open your eyes to the truth...

Faith saves for ever...saving faith will produce fruit, but the fruit produced will NOT DO THAT WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE BY THE ACT OF FAITH....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I simply have asked YOU how does one become attached to the Vine? We both agree God attaches the branch to the vine but WHO and WHY does God attach one and not another?

well since you can do NO GOOD WORK before your attached.

you tell me? those who place their faith in God. or those who reject God?

 

[SeaBass]

No I did not say this, I said one claimed to have faith and were liars, because their faith was dead.

if their faith was alive it would have produced works.

so tell me.

James said if one claims to have faith but has NO WORKS.

how many works does it take to prove my faith was not dead? 1? 5? 10? 100? 1000? what is the cut off of a dead faith to a real faith which saves? can you tell us? we do not want to be lost because we did not do enough works.

Post #58 you posted "No. James said if a man CLAIMS to have faith, but has no works, His faith is dead. and can not save him."

You are saying here that WITHOUT works a man only has a CLAIM to faith, without works his faith is dead.

The implication is works are required to keep form having a dead faith. Can one be saved by a dead faith? No, so works are required to have a living faith that saves.

One does the works that God requires. Abraham did and was justified by those works, those works proved his faith.

If God says believe, repent, confess and be baptized to be saved, and I do those works, then I have done what God requires to become a Christian. Upon becoming a Christian one is required to do al many good works as he possibly can, as he has opportunity. Could it be you do not know how many or what type of works God requires because you are not looking?

 

[elf3]

So funny that "sea otter" only starts these types of forums. Every single time the same stupid argument. Is this the only subject in his Bible? That's a pretty small Bible. He must be a lawyer because it's always legalistic. Although I know some lawyers who don't treat the Bible this way.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Sea thing has me blocked so he can't read this. But just ask him one question....."how are we justified before God" not judged but justified.

So funny that "sea otter" only starts these types of forums. Every single time the same stupid argument. Is this the only subject in his Bible? That's a pretty small Bible. He must be a lawyer because it's always legalistic. Although I know some lawyers who don't treat the Bible this way.

​There is absolutely no reason to call him names, simply because he has you on ignore.. How are YOU "justified by God" to judge SeaBass? Or anyone else here, for that matter?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Post #58 you posted "No. James said if a man CLAIMS to have faith, but has no works, His faith is dead. and can not save him."

You are saying here that WITHOUT works a man only has a CLAIM to faith, without works his faith is dead.

The implication is works are required to keep form having a dead faith. Can one be saved by a dead faith? No, so works are required to have a living faith that saves.

One does the works that God requires. Abraham did and was justified by those works, those works proved his faith.

If God says believe, repent, confess and be baptized to be saved, and I do those works, then I have done what God requires to become a Christian. Upon becoming a Christian one is required to do al many good works as he possibly can, as he has opportunity. Could it be you do not know how many or what type of works God requires because you are not looking?

James said if one claims to have faith but has NO WORKS.

how many works does it take to prove my faith was not dead? 1? 5? 10? 100? 1000? what is the cut off of a dead faith to a real faith which saves? can you tell us? we do not want to be lost because we did not do enough works.

again, do you want to answer?

 

[SeaBass]

HEY You agree with me, now how does one get attached to the vine? who does the attaching?

God attaches one to the Vine, we both agreed to this.

The issue is does God attach EVERYONE UNconditionally to the vine? If not, why? Does God only attach some men to the Vine? If God attaches on some men to the Vine then why those particular men and not others?

God says how one is attached, and who is attached.

Those who have heard his word. trust the word, places their faith in the word, and calls out on the nae of the lord to be saved by faith.

Then God attaches you, and you produce fruit (do good works)

those in james were never attached to the vine if they were, they would have produced good works.

Yes, we agree God determines who will be attached to the Vine. But HOW, what basis does God use in determining who will or will not be in the Vine?

You say the basis God uses is if one calls out on the name of the Lord to be saved.

1) then you do play a role yourself in being attached in the Vine by calling on the name of the Lord. (Are you trying to earn salvation by your calling out? If not, how is it your calling out does not earn you salvation but my obedience in believing repenting confessing and being baptized supposedly does earn my salvation?))

2) can one call on the name of the Lord yet not do what the Lord has said, Lk 6:46? No. So calling on the name of the Lord means DOING those things the Lord has said. So those that OBEY the Lord are the ones attached to the Vine.

 

[SeaBass]

there is no such thing as faith only. Thats only in your head. A person that rejects the word of CHrist do not have faith, they can claim they have faith all they want (like james said) but that does not make it true.

James said the devils believe and tremble, so the devils have belief only. "Only" is an exclusionary word so 'belief only' excludes everything but belief. So the devils have a belief that excludes everything else including obedience in repenting confessing and being baptized.

When James said by works a man is justified and not by faith only, what did James mean by "faith only" if such a thing does not exist but only in my head? What James means by faith only is a belief void of works as the devils have. I can believe God exist and can even believe that Christ is the Son of God, but that simple mental acknowledge without works (belief only) cannot save me.

When they have no faith at all. Either do not believe outright, or only a mere belief, but no faith.

Abraham was saved by faith, proven by the fact he did those works. But he was not saved by those works. Paul makes this clear in romans 4. if he was saved by works, he has somethign to boast. He could go around and say, Hey, I went to sacrifice my son, I left my family and home and went to a strange place. I did this, I did that, and because of it, God saved me.

Abraham was saved by faith but NOT FAITH ONLY for James rules out a man being justified by faith only. That can only mean that Abraham had an OBEDIENT WORKING FAITH by which he was justified....by an obedient WORKING faith Abraham was justified and not by a faith only that is void of those obedient works.

Without those works Abraham would have had faith only, that is, a faith that EXCLUDES everything else including works. Yet his faith did not exclude works but INCLUDED works so hie faith was not alone.

So there is such a thing as belief only it> is a belief that is void of works that does not save contrasted to a belief that contains works that does save.

 

[SeaBass]

Yeah and the bible also states concerning Abraham...

1. Justified by faith without works
2. Had faith long before circumcision and the almost sacrifice of Isaac....WAKE up Sea Perch and open your eyes to the truth...

Faith saves for ever...saving faith will produce fruit, but the fruit produced will NOT DO THAT WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE BY THE ACT OF FAITH....

1) how can Paul say Abraham was justified without works when James says he was justified by works? See, you create a contradiction between James and Paul when you fail to see in Rom 4:2 Paul is talking about works of merit and not obedient works as Abraham DID have. Abraham did have obedient works that save and not works of merit that do not save. Or do you deny Abraham's faith included obedient works?

2) where does the bible say Abraham was justified by faith only? Again, James already ruled out being justified by faith only so if works were not the means by which Abraham was justified then by what was he justified?

 

[SeaBass]

well since you can do NO GOOD WORK before your attached.

you tell me? those who place their faith in God. or those who reject God?

Anyone can do good works before being in the Vine but those good works cannot save.

Those who place their faith in God are the ones God places in the Vine.

What does it mean to "place faith in God"? Has one placed their faith in God if they have not obeyed what God said? Can one call Jesus "Lord" without doing those things Christ said?

 

[SeaBass]

James said if one claims to have faith but has NO WORKS.

how many works does it take to prove my faith was not dead? 1? 5? 10? 100? 1000? what is the cut off of a dead faith to a real faith which saves? can you tell us? we do not want to be lost because we did not do enough works.

again, do you want to answer?

How many works has God given to man for man to be saved?

From reading God's word, I can see God has given man the work of hearing, believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism to be saved, Rom 10:17; Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mk 16:16. After one is in a saved position, he must do good works, Eph 2:10, and be faithful unto death, Rev 2:10.

So now you know what works God requires for man to be saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James said the devils believe and tremble, so the devils have belief only. "Only" is an exclusionary word so 'belief only' excludes everything but belief. So the devils have a belief that excludes everything else including obedience in repenting confessing and being baptized.

Lets get it in context. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

He is telling them belief is not enough, It takes FAITH!

When James said by works a man is justified and not by faith only, what did James mean by "faith only" if such a thing does not exist but only in my head? What James means by faith only is a belief void of works as the devils have. I can believe God exist and can even believe that Christ is the Son of God, but that simple mental acknowledge without works (belief only) cannot save me.

he said the facts. IF YOU CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH, But have belief only, your not saved.

You do understand the same greek word is translated faith and belief do you not?

Abraham was saved by faith but NOT FAITH ONLY for James rules out a man being justified by faith only. That can only mean that Abraham had an OBEDIENT WORKING FAITH by which he was justified....by an obedient WORKING faith Abraham was justified and not by a faith only that is void of those obedient works.

Without those works Abraham would have had faith only, that is, a faith that EXCLUDES everything else including works. Yet his faith did not exclude works but INCLUDED works so hie faith was not alone.

So there is such a thing as belief only it> is a belief that is void of works that does not save contrasted to a belief that contains works that does save.

Abraham was declared righteous (saved) before he did one work. go back to the OT and read, and stop following the doctrines of men.

Abraham believed God, and was declaried righteous (in right standing with God)

THEN he was circumcised
THEN he trusted God to allow him to have a kid
THEN he took that kid and was willing to sacrifice him.
THEN the list goes on and on.

Yet he was saved BEFORE he did ONE IOTA OF WORK. He DID THE WORK BECAUSE HE TRUSTED GOD. And he was SAVED OUT OF THAT TRUST.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anyone can do good works before being in the Vine but those good works cannot save.

Those who place their faith in God are the ones God places in the Vine.

What does it mean to "place faith in God"? Has one placed their faith in God if they have not obeyed what God said? Can one call Jesus "Lord" without doing those things Christ said?

So are you attaching yourself to the vine?

New flash seabee, Any work you do not attached to tbe vine is a work at all, it is self righteousnes, because it was not powered by God. IT CAN NOT PRODUCE FRUIT.

One cannot DO WHAT CHRIST SAID, UNTIL THEY ARE ATTACHED TO THE VINE.

 

[Brainfreeze]

It all works together... The only thing that needs to be done FIRST is hear the Word of God and believe what they are reading. Everything else will follow if one believes. Why make it complicated ? Only real problem I see is true repentance, if we are really sorry, we will turn away from our wicked ways and let God purify us " renewing the mind and heart ".

 

[Brainfreeze]

So are you attaching yourself to the vine?

New flash seabee, Any work you do not attached to tbe vine is a work at all, it is self righteousnes, because it was not powered by God. IT CAN NOT PRODUCE FRUIT.

One cannot DO WHAT CHRIST SAID, UNTIL THEY ARE ATTACHED TO THE VINE.

Why call him something out of his name ? Why get angry ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How many works has God given to man for man to be saved?

From reading God's word, I can see God has given man the work of hearing, believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism to be saved, Rom 10:17; Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mk 16:16. After one is in a saved position, he must do good works, Eph 2:10, and be faithful unto death, Rev 2:10.

So now you know what works God requires for man to be saved.

so I must do those few works, then I am free to live as I wish, as long as I do those works.

Your joking right?