Paul And James in Total, Complete Agreement On Works

[SeaBass]

James 2:24-------- works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justified
Rom 6:17,18-------obeyed>>>>>>>>>>>>freed from sins/justified

Both James and Paul are speaking of obedient works.......Abraham obeyed God's will and the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine > obeyed God's will.

Both James and Paul put obedient works BEFORE justification.


Perfect harmonization.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I just posted 100 scriptures from all over the bible about obedience in the thread, why people don't know dead means dead.

Even though I posted those 100 scriptures, people are still denying obedience needed for salvation.

 

[Brainfreeze]

I just posted 100 scriptures from all over the bible about obedience in the thread, why people don't know dead means dead.

Even though I posted those 100 scriptures, people are still denying obedience needed for salvation.

Once saved, the Spirit convicts... " renewing of our minds " ... " transformation " takes place... Then it's on the individual to live the same way or go with the conscious conviction to change... It has nothing to do with working to get to heaven or works to get salvation...

 

[SeaBass]

Once saved, the Spirit convicts... " renewing of our minds " ... " transformation " takes place... Then it's on the individual to live the same way or go with the conscious conviction to change... It has nothing to do with working to get to heaven or works to get salvation...

Both Paul and James put obedient works BEFORE justification.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes they are.

paul said whoever is saved by faith will do works.

James said the exact same thing, worded differently, if your not saved, you will not do works.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Both Paul and James put obedient works BEFORE justification.

What's in the heart, is what matters .. I was a sinner but I had a good heart. God put me through a BIG test to show me just how good, I was a man of little faith though and was caught in a sin filled life. I was confused, didn't know who I was " did what I wanted, but time to time read the Bible... after this test I knew for fact now who I was, no more could I deny or hide, after praying that night, my life changed overnight... The Spirit has also shown and convicted me on other little things as I was doing as well... Example : I knew my choice of music was terrible, but didn't think the radio stuff was so bad, harmless right ? No, God put something in my way that showed me I was wrong, changed it. I call it " pruning " a good tree... The tree first has to recognize that it's forgiven and good, before any said " pruning " will take place..(works). Then comes helping someone get a basket or helping with groceries at the store, and this type of thing..

 

[mailmandan]

James 2:24-------- works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justified
Rom 6:17,18-------obeyed>>>>>>>>>>>>freed from sins/justified

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). The harmony of Ephesians 2:8,9 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove or show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet genuine faith is evidenced by good works. *Perfect harmony*

Romans 6:17,18 --- Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We obey the gospel/obey that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel. 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith. That is the moment we are freed from sins/justified. Also see Acts 10:43; Romans 3:24; 5:1.

Both James and Paul are speaking of obedient works.......Abraham obeyed God's will and the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine > obeyed God's will.

Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6) many years before he was said to be justified by works in James 2:21. Again, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). James is talking about good works which follow faith and conversion. Paul is talking about obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Neither of them are teaching salvation by works, as you are.

Both James and Paul put obedient works BEFORE justification.

Actually they don't, but your church does and so does the Roman Catholic church and the Mormon church. You need to let go of your works and take hold of Christ through FAITH.

Perfect harmonization.

Not at all. Through flawed hermeneutics, you are teaching salvation "by works."

 

[Jackson123]

James 2:24-------- works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justified
Rom 6:17,18-------obeyed>>>>>>>>>>>>freed from sins/justified

Both James and Paul are speaking of obedient works.......Abraham obeyed God's will and the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine > obeyed God's will.

Both James and Paul put obedient works BEFORE justification.


Perfect harmonization.

Do you believe you able to obey the Lord before you abide in Him?

Then what is you interpretation of Branch can't bear the fruit of itself?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Do you believe you able to obey the Lord before you abide in Him?

Then what is you interpretation of Branch can't bear the fruit of itself?

That is what repentance is all about, showing how obedience and faith work hand in hand.
Repent means to turn from ones sins, and dedicate you life to God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Once saved, the Spirit convicts... " renewing of our minds " ... " transformation " takes place... Then it's on the individual to live the same way or go with the conscious conviction to change... It has nothing to do with working to get to heaven or works to get salvation...

I will break it down to you, it is not about works of the law or one who try's to earn salvation with works that gets salvation.
Saying that though, their is a such thing as spiritual works that work hand in hand with faith for salvation.

Without faith and obedience one would not know to repent of their sins and then follow through with it. They will have no salvation if they don't obey the command to repent. The Lord says if you love Me you will keep My commandments, and if you say you love Me and don't keep My commandments the truth is not in you.

 

[notuptome]

That is what repentance is all about, showing how obedience and faith work hand in hand.
Repent means to turn from ones sins, and dedicate you life to God.

Perhaps that's your definition of repentance but it's not Gods.

To repent is to turn around and cease to see yourself as righteous and receive the righteousness of Christ by grace through faith which is believing Gods word on the matter.

You want to work? Focus on the works that matter. Purify yourself in the heart before God and not before men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Brainfreeze]

I will break it down to you, it is not about works of the law or one who try's to earn salvation with works that gets salvation.
Saying that though, their is a such thing as spiritual works that work hand in hand with faith for salvation.

Without faith and obedience one would not know to repent of their sins and then follow through with it. They will have no salvation if they don't obey the command to repent. The Lord says if you love Me you will keep My commandments, and if you say you love Me and don't keep My commandments the truth is not in you.

Well thank you Kenneth for breaking it down... but I thought I was pretty clear by saying " once saved " so to be saved, you would first have to hear and comprehend the Word of God.. Doesn't mean people will be saved right there, it just means they now hold the keys, it's up to the individual to open the door and take God serious. We are not obedient first though, some maybe a little more then others, but only complete obedience will come from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jackson123]

That is what repentance is all about, showing how obedience and faith work hand in hand.
Repent means to turn from ones sins, and dedicate you life to God.

Brother Kenneth,

Do you believe Obedience possible happen before abide to the vine?

Obey His command mean to Love/agape Love. because the greatest command is agape Love.

On these command hang on all the law and prophet

In other word if you don't have agape love, what ever you do/help/ give you self to burn or give all you money to the poor, but without love is nothing

I Corinthian 13
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.


37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Love is the constitution/the basic of the law of God.

Do you believe you able to obey this law before abide to the Vine.
If so why Jesus said branch doesn't able to bear the fruit of itself.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Perhaps that's your definition of repentance but it's not Gods.

To repent is to turn around and cease to see yourself as righteous and receive the righteousness of Christ by grace through faith which is believing Gods word on the matter.

You want to work? Focus on the works that matter. Purify yourself in the heart before God and not before men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Greek Lexicon definition

1. 
   [*=left]to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
   
   [*=left]to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
   
   
   
   Standard definition by the dictionary;
   
   
   [h=2][SUP]1[/SUP]re·pent[/h] verb \ri-ˈpent\: to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   [h=2]Full Definition of REPENT[/h]intransitive verb
   1
   : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
   
   2
   a : to feel regret or contrition
   b : to change one's mind
   
   transitive verb
   1
   : to cause to feel regret or contrition
   
   2
   : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
   — re·pent·er noun
   
   

All of these put together is how the bible uses repentance.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Brother Kenneth,

Do you believe Obedience possible happen before abide to the vine?

Obey His command mean to Love/agape Love. because the greatest command is agape Love.

On these command hang on all the law and prophet

In other word if you don't have agape love, what ever you do/help/ give you self to burn or give all you money to the poor, but without love is nothing

I Corinthian 13
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.


37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Love is the constitution/the basic of the law of God.

Do you believe you able to obey this law before abide to the Vine.
If so why Jesus said branch doesn't able to bear the fruit of itself.

What I believe is obedience and love work together in faith.
You can not have one without the other, and James sees it the same way when He says faith without works is dead.

You can not have faith, when nothing follows.

 

[Jackson123]

What I believe is obedience and love work together in faith.
You can not have one without the other, and James sees it the same way when He says faith without works is dead.

You can not have faith, when nothing follows.

Jesus said branch can't bear the fruit of itself.

Only if abide in Him branch bear the fruit.

So you believe without abide in Him first you able to obey the command of Love?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Jesus said branch can't bear the fruit of itself.

Only if abide in Him branch bear the fruit.

So you believe without abide in Him first you able to obey the command of Love?

Do you (if you're a branch) believe if you do nothing (never bear fruit) you will remain in Him?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Jesus said branch can't bear the fruit of itself.

Only if abide in Him branch bear the fruit.

So you believe without abide in Him first you able to obey the command of Love?

I believe one hears the word, they believe in what they heard, and through that faith they repent, dedicating their life to God and turning from their sins. From here that obedience out of love for Him will have a believer walk a proper life bearing good fruit.

 

[Brainfreeze]

I believe one hears the word, they believe in what they heard, and through that faith they repent, dedicating their life to God and turning from their sins. From here that obedience out of love for Him will have a believer walk a proper life bearing good fruit.

Only objection I have, is the Holy Spirit will help with what's in bold, therefore it's not just " our works " it's His works that work through us...changing us, to walk away from sinfulness and transforming us to His righteousness through the Holy Spirit, that will produce good fruit.

 

[Jackson123]

Do you (if you're a branch) believe if you do nothing (never bear fruit) you will remain in Him?

If you do nothing. Mean you have to do something. What do you mean by doing something?

I believe I can't bear fruit of myself. event if I want to. How you expect to bear fruit when Jesus Himself said only if you abide in me you will bear fruit.

So you believe without abide in Him you able to bear fruit?