THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb

VCO · Nov 14, 2014

watcher2013 said:

WHOSE LIE DID YOU HAVE TO SWALLOW, TO COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT CANNOT DO HIS JOB ON EARTH WHILE HE IS PRESENT IN HEAVEN?

The Holy Spirit took up residence on Earth in the Hearts of Born Again Believers starting the Day of Pentecost.

HOW ON EARTH DO YOU THINK ANYONE GOT SAVED PRIOR TO THAT?

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

ALL would include the Old Testament Saints and we both BELIEVE GOD, especially:

Isaiah 43:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

They believed the YAHWEH is the only Savior and that MESSIAH would come!

We believe that YAHWEH is the only Savior and that MESSIAH did come in the body of Jesus!

IT IS THE SAME FAITH, the FAITH OF ABRAHAM!

Exodus 35:21 (ESV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spirit moved him, and brought the LORD’s contribution to be used for the tent of meeting, and for all its service, and for the holy garments.

Psalm 34:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] The LORD is near the brokenhearted; He saves those crushed in spirit.

Psalm 51:10-11 (ASV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Create in me a clean heart, O God; And renew a right spirit within me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Cast me not away from thy presence; And take not thy holy Spirit from me.

The Holy Spirit can do HIS JOB extremely well without taking up residence HERE on Earth. Starting the Day of Pentecost, HE did so that we would not be Comfortless. THAT COMFORT is knowing HE RESIDES IN US, but HE saved Old Testament Saints without that added COMFORT that Christ Promised us. ACTUALLY there is an additional reason for Jesus Christ sending the Holy Spirit to reside in us. The Jewish Bridegroom once the Bride accepted HIS proposal, had to give the Bride a very precious Gift. The Holy Spirit is our Betrothal Gift.

VCO · Nov 14, 2014

PlainWord said:

And what do you think John would have called New York City when he saw a giant statue of the famous Babylonian Goddess Ishtar standing in the Harbor?

VCO · Nov 14, 2014

Atwood said:

Matthew 25:1-13 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them:
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now while the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But at midnight there is a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are going out.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But the wise answered, saying, Peradventure there will not be enough for us and you: go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And while they went away to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast: and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour.

John 14:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself,that where I am, there you may be also.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "And you know the way where I am going."

John 14:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Matthew 25:6 (ASV)[SUP]
6 [/SUP] But at midnight there is a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet Him.

1 Peter 2:9 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

If it still sounds like foolishness to YOU, perhaps it is because you have not taken the first step to becoming part of the Bride? Is Jesus Christ truly your LORD and Master, or is it STILL YOU who is your own lord and master? I KNOW the total involuntary OBEDIENT response of my muscles to His commands as my MASTER, DO YOU?

PlainWord · Nov 14, 2014

Atwood said:

Are you serious? Of course dead believers go to heaven. We are talking about living believers. You misquoted John 14 too my friend and since you misquoted it, you misunderstood it. Christ isn't going to heaven to prepare heaven

. He isn't even talking about going to heaven.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]In My Father’s house are many mansions;[SUP][a][/SUP] if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Christ is stating a fact that His father's house has mansions (or rooms). They are already built - Present Tense.

Now let me ask you within the context of the passage - where is Christ going next, to heaven or to the cross?

How is it that a believer gets to go to heaven? through the cross. So Christ was going to the cross to prepare the way to heaven or their place in heaven. He isn't preparing heaven itself as God has already done that.

When Christ returns to earth (even if you assume it is in the sky over head) where is He then? Is He here or still in heaven? So if we are gathered to Christ once He returns where are we then, still here or in heaven???

As for the rest of your post, the Tribulation takes place at the 4th seal. The 4th seal is the final assault of Islam against Jews and Christians. We are already in the 4th seal.

How do I know the Tribulation is Satan's Wrath? Because Christians are slaughtered and they come out of the Great Tribulation. God isn't doing the slaughtering, sorry. You can think that if you want.

PlainWord · Nov 14, 2014

VCO said:

Hey, we agree on something dear brother. We agree to disagree.

. My children have no plans to go to the Beast's Kingdom in the Middle East so fingers crossed they don't run into a random terrorist here.

Taking the Mark or not taking it simply means you may not be able to buy and sell, but you can still buy and sell providing you have the name of the Beast or the number of his name. Not taking the mark in and of itself, doesn't mean death. Not worshiping the image of the Beast means death IF you are caught not worshiping it. But hey, you get to fly away so I guess none of this matters for you.

VCO · Nov 14, 2014

PlainWord said:

NONE are so blind as those who will not see.

That expression, "I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU", comes right out of a Jewish Wedding proposal, and has been said, by nearly every Jewish Bridegroom for 3000 years. The New Place for the Bride was ALWAYS built, in the house that belongs to the Father of the Bride, and JESUS SAID "IN MY FATHER'S HOUSE"; and you sit there WILLINGLY sticking your fingers in your ears, while wearing a blindfold, spewing comtempt saying, "Christ isn't going to heaven to prepare heaven. He isn't even talking about going to heaven." When you do not even know that EVERY JEWISH BRIDEGROOM was required to build a new dwelling place in his Father's house for his bride, even if all he could afford to do was to upgrade a couple of old rooms. It it called adding on an addition or upgrading vacant rooms to an existing house to accommodate the new family moving in; and JESUS IS A MASTER CARPENTER. AND that Addition or UPGRADE was not complete until he had adorned it as a bride, dressing it up for the Wedding Ceremony, that ALWAYS TOOK PLACE IN THE NEW DWELLING PLACE, freshly built by the Bridegroom. NEW JERUSALEM is our NEW DWELLING PLACE.

When JESUS is using the traditional expressions of a Jewish Bridegroom; don't you think it behooves you to spend a little time studying those Jewish Traditions so that you can understand what He is talking about?
Jewish Wedding Customs and the Bride of Messiah

John 14:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

John 14:2-3 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.

John 14:2-3 (NRSV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also.

VCO · Nov 14, 2014

PlainWord said:

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

Gee, and you are here. Perhaps the time is later than I think.

[video=youtube;lmGiu9JfbIs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmGiu9JfbIs[/video]

Revelation 14:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 6:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until ⌊the number⌋ would be completed ⌊of⌋ their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been.

Revelation 20:4 (ISV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came back to life and ruled with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 17:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
Revelation 11:7-10 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. {NOW, DOES THAT SOUND LIKE ANY SAINTS ARE LEFT WITH THEIR HEADS ON THEIR SHOULDERS TO YOU?}

Daniel 2:41-45 (GW)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] You also saw the feet and toes. They were partly potters' clay and partly iron. This means that there will be a divided kingdom which has some of the firmness of iron. As you saw, iron was mixed with clay.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] The toes were partly iron and partly clay. Part of the kingdom will be strong, and part will be brittle.
[SUP]43 [/SUP] As you saw, iron was mixed with clay. So the two parts of the kingdom will mix by intermarrying, but they will not hold together any more than iron can mix with clay.
[SUP]44 [/SUP] “At the time of those kings, the God of heaven will establish a kingdom that will never be destroyed. No other people will be permitted to rule it. It will smash all the other kingdoms and put an end to them. But it will be established forever.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] This is the stone that you saw cut out from a mountain, but not by humans. It smashed the iron, bronze, clay, silver, and gold. The great God has told you what will happen in the future, Your Majesty. The dream is true, and you can trust that this is its meaning.”

I highly recommend you rethink your THEOLOGY.

Atwood · Nov 14, 2014

PlainWord said:

If you study the use of the word, "Tribulation(s)"

What leads you to think that the term tribulation is defined by who does the tribulizing, instead of by the distress of the tribulee? Do you some reason for supposing that Israel's tribulation has nothing to do with her travail in bringing forth a nation?

it concerns Israel & the gentile nations -- nothing about the Church there.

What is your proof that the Beast is Islam?
As to believing YOU, there is a curse in Jeremiah for trusting men.

Give us a verse where that is said of the Church (ekklesia), as opposed to Israel.

this Chat Forum, and blasphemed Christians for believing in a Pre-Trib rapture, as if it were a heresy. It doesn't bother me when someone disagrees on eschatology, but it does bother me when someone gets on his high horse & judges Christians for trying to put together scripture the best way possible.

PreTrib is the best explanation I know of for
1) imminent return of Christ (no 7 yr delay,
2) interpreting literally when possible.
3) no mention of the Church in any passage that describes Israel's tribulation.
4) 1 Thes 4 ends with the Rapture, while 1 Thes 5 starts with the Day of the Lord/trib.
5) Use of apostasia in 2 Thes 2.

PlainWord · Nov 14, 2014

And then there are those that see things that aren't there

.

So much speculation. So Jesus is up there doing an addition? He's got his hammer and nails? Did he stop at Home Depot before He went back to get building materials? Really?

Let's make this simple. Where is Jesus going to be for His Millennial reign?

Do we have any passages that give us timing and location for the wedding.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John,saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holyJerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

We have two references specifically identifying the Bride as the New Jerusalem. This is shown after all the Tribulation and Judgment. So, nice try.

Where is Jesus when He gathers us?

and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Sure looks like we are gathered here on earth by angels. So if Christ is here and we are gathered here, where do you get this flying back to heaven nonsense? Just give me one passage anywhere in the Bible, OT or NT that tells us Christ returns with us to heaven after the gathering. If you can do this, I will apologize profusely, throw ashes on my head, change into my sackcloth and beg your forgiveness.

Jesus was trying to tell His disciples about his pending trip to the cross. He wasn't telling them, "Hey guys, I'm flying off to heaven soon with my tool box." There was a little bit bigger of an errand to do first.

Atwood · Nov 14, 2014

PlainWord said:

you will find it in Lamentations, where the Lord caused the tribulation:

20 Look, O LORD, and see!
With whom have you dealt thus?
Should women eat the fruit of their womb,
the children of their tender care?
Should priest and prophet be killed
in the sanctuary of the Lord?

21 In the dust of the streets
lie the young and the old;
my young women and my young men
have fallen by the sword;
you have killed them in the day of your anger,
slaughtering without pity.

22 You summoned as if to a festival day
my terrors on every side,
and on the day of the anger of the LORD
no one escaped or survived;
those whom I held and raised
my enemy destroyed.

3:1 I am the man who has seen affliction
under the rod of his wrath;
2 he has driven and brought me
into darkness without any light;
3 surely against me he turns his hand
again and again the whole day long.

4 He has made my flesh and my skin waste away;
he has broken my bones;
5 he has besieged and enveloped me
with bitterness and tribulation;
6 he has made me dwell in darkness
like the dead of long ago.

7 He has walled me about so that I cannot escape;
he has made my chains heavy;
8 though I call and cry for help,
he shuts out my prayer;
9 he has blocked my ways with blocks of stones;
he has made my paths crooked.

10 He is a bear lying in wait for me,
a lion in hiding;
11 he turned aside my steps and tore me to pieces;
he has made me desolate;
12 he bent his bow and set me
as a target for his arrow.

13 He drove into my kidneys
the arrows of his quiver;
14 I have become the laughingstock of all peoples,
the object of their taunts all day long.
15 He has filled me with bitterness;
he has sated me with wormwood.

16 He has made my teeth grind on gravel,
and made me cower in ashes;
17 my soul is bereft of peace;
I have forgotten what happiness is;
18 so I say, “My endurance has perished;
so has my hope from the LORD.”

PlainWord · Nov 14, 2014

Watch this video and it will leave no doubt. Even my dad who is a HUGE pretribber agreed with everything in this video. Once you understand who the BEAST is and where the Man of Sin (known by you as AntiChrist) is, then it will help you see other truths.

Babylon the Great & The Turkish Antichrist - Armageddon News - YouTube

John Nelson Darby was also a man.

You're right, Christ was only speaking to the Fathers of His Church. In your mind he saw them more as Atheistic Israel and not the Fathers of His church so naturally He was speaking of Israel being hated....

Pre-Trib totally contradicts the Word of God and I do feel obligated to defend it. Christ specifically tells us to expect tribulation. NOwhere does He teach in a rapture fly off doctrine for the church at the end. Show me where He reverses His specific teachings for tribulation for believers. Some think that it was okay for 2,000 years of church persecution but it's not okay for me like those who've died for the faith before us are second class citizens. Somehow you believe only the end time church is the body of Christ. We apparently get to escape all Satan is planning to throw at us but those who went before us were not worthy. What a slap in the face to those martyrs.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

ALL THINGS??? Did Christ stutter?? Did He leave something out? Maybe He forgot? Where's the fly off Rapture lesson that He taught His disciples, my friend?

For the Fly Away Rapture doctrine to be true, one has to believe that it was reserved for Paul to teach but then ignore that John who wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ totally was uninformed about it because John never breathes a word about it.

What is so imminent about nearly 2,000 years? Was it imminent for all the disciples who were killed for their faith? Were they spared tribulation? To have an imminent theory one has to believe that there are no (ZERO) prerequisites from the moment such a thing is uttered because it literally could happen at any moment. My dear friend on here, Watcher2013 said this best and I paraphrase. There was no true immanency intention for these reasons.

Christ told Peter how he would die. Could Christ have come back before then?
Christ predicted the destruction of the temple in AD 70. Could he have come back before then?
Christ left it to John to "reveal" things in AD 95-96. Could He have come back before then?

That would be a HUGE mistake. You have to know the sign posts to understand when things are literal and when things are spiritual. When you don't know how to read these sign posts you start seeing different colored horses riding around with oceans turning to blood and trees and grass on fire with mountains crashing to earth and strange beasts with multiple heads coming out of the seas with scarlet women riding them, etc.

.

Atwood · Nov 14, 2014

PlainWord said:

IN HEAVEN they are alive.

Prove that or retract. Thou shalt not bear false witness!
Do not confuse and interpretation with a quote.

Who said, "prepare heaven"? The general idea is that He went to prepare a place for the believer in Heaven, the place where Christ would soon be & is now.

What is your proof for all that? Are you doing newspaper exegesis? I have visions of someone going on the same way during WWII about the Nazis.

From where did you get the word "next"?

The only preparing in the verses is what Christ was going to prepare. There is nothing about the Father having prepared anything -- just the statement that there were many dwellings there.

Who is this "Christ" to which you refer?
Do you confess that He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, YHWH become man in the flesh?

As for the rest of your post, the Tribulation takes place at the 4th seal. The 4th seal is the final assault of Islam against Jews and Christians. We are already in the 4th seal.

JamesFlash · Nov 14, 2014

VCO said:

what is a Millennial Kingdom?
what is it for?

VCO · Nov 14, 2014

PlainWord said:

And then there are those that see things that aren't there

.

So much speculation. So Jesus is up there doing an addition? He's got his hammer and nails? Did he stop at Home Depot before He went back to get building materials? Really?

Let's make this simple. Where is Jesus going to be for His Millennial reign?

Do we have any passages that give us timing and location for the wedding.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John,saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holyJerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

We have two references specifically identifying the Bride as the New Jerusalem. This is shown after all the Tribulation and Judgment. So, nice try.

Where is Jesus when He gathers us?

and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Sure looks like we are gathered here on earth by angels. So if Christ is here and we are gathered here, where do you get this flying back to heaven nonsense? Just give me one passage anywhere in the Bible, OT or NT that tells us Christ returns with us to heaven after the gathering. If you can do this, I will apologize profusely, throw ashes on my head, change into my sackcloth and beg your forgiveness.

Jesus was trying to tell His disciples about his pending trip to the cross. He wasn't telling them, "Hey guys, I'm flying off to heaven soon with my tool box." There was a little bit bigger of an errand to do first.

I already showed you several verses and you rejected them because they do not fit what you want to believe. Enjoy your life before Antichrist comes on the scene, because you will not like it when the Great Tribulation starts. We are finished. If the rest of my born again brethren are reading this, maybe it is time we all ignore this one.

JamesFlash · Nov 14, 2014

PlainWord said:

And then there are those that see things that aren't there

.

So much speculation. So Jesus is up there doing an addition? He's got his hammer and nails? Did he stop at Home Depot before He went back to get building materials? Really?

Let's make this simple. Where is Jesus going to be for His Millennial reign?

Do we have any passages that give us timing and location for the wedding.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Then I, John,saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holyJerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

We have two references specifically identifying the Bride as the New Jerusalem. This is shown after all the Tribulation and Judgment. So, nice try.

Where is Jesus when He gathers us?

and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Sure looks like we are gathered here on earth by angels. So if Christ is here and we are gathered here, where do you get this flying back to heaven nonsense? Just give me one passage anywhere in the Bible, OT or NT that tells us Christ returns with us to heaven after the gathering. If you can do this, I will apologize profusely, throw ashes on my head, change into my sackcloth and beg your forgiveness.

Jesus was trying to tell His disciples about his pending trip to the cross. He wasn't telling them, "Hey guys, I'm flying off to heaven soon with my tool box." There was a little bit bigger of an errand to do first.

lol. really. i lol'd.
agreed. utter foolishness.
it's not in there, but who cares. makes a good movie.

VCO · Nov 14, 2014

JamesFlash said:

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

Atwood · Nov 14, 2014

PlainWord tends to Fly Off the Handle, while he scorns a fly off rapture.

PlainWord said:

Awful straw man. Let's see you proof that pre-tribbers do not believe that Christians have tribulations in this life, alway have & always will. We are talking about Daniel's 70th week, an Israelite prophecy -- nothing to do with the Church. So far as I know, the eschatological tribulation is called "The Great Tribulation," and in the Olivet Discourse when "trib" is said, it means the Great Trib.

What do you mean by that? You means the sayings in the 4 gospels? Or the whole Bible? It is all Christ's word.

And who is this HE. Is He the 2nd person of the Trinity, YHWH who became man in the flesh?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be raptured [caught up] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Your slap in the face to martyrs is absurd.

If you have the theory that the Church must go through Daniel's 70th week, even the Great Tribulation of Mat 24, and the seals, trumpets, & vials, of Revelation; you have an impossible theory. For most of the Church generations have died long ago without going through that Great Tribulation. And God is not going to resurrect them to put them through the Trib. About 2000 years of Christians in the Church cannot go through the trib, for they are already dead!

For Rapture in the gospels, see John 14, where the return of Christ is there & he takes the believers to go & be with Him where He is.

[SUP]

Christ is omniscient. If you think that the above means that Christ shared his omniscience with the disciples on earth, that is absurd.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you.

Christ's return for the disciples which involves a Rapture (1 Thes 4) was taught by Him in John 14.

It isn't the 2000 years that makes Christ's return immanent. It is that He has ever been the judge at the doors, liable to return at any time; indefinite temporal nearness, threatening to happen at any uncertain time -- but we do not know when.

Imminence means that so far as believers know, He could come at any time. From what Christ told Peter in a riddle, Peter could not know that Peter would die before the rapture. I don't see why those who heard the Olivet Discourse would know that the Temple would be destroyed after the Rapture. The time of the return is not uncertain to God; He knows exactly when. But He wishes us to be always ready for Christ's return at any time. Even the 2nd coming to earth is warned as at a time you think not.

From what you say, to avoid making huge mistakes you indeed understand hermeneutics.

Atwood · Nov 14, 2014

JamesFlash said:

20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

As to purpose:
I suggest you look up the promised kingdom to Israel in the OT, & the Davidic Covenant, e.g., 2 Sam 7.

Kerry · Nov 14, 2014

Nail on the head Atwood

Atwood · Nov 14, 2014

Eminent, Immanent, & Imminent

I see I mispelled/typo-ed imminent below.
Once & for all it is well to get 3 words correct:

1) Eminent = famous
2) Immanent =
- a) present in the universe (vs transcendent = present outside the universe);
- b) inherent
3) Imminent = about to happen at any uncertain time; threatening to happen at any time, like the Rapture.

THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb

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