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When does the rapture occur?
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How can we be so absolutely sure?
Let's see, the temple was destroyed, so...
.Can you identify what the A of D would have been in 70 AD?
Do you really believe that Titus was the Man of Sin discussed by Paul? Did Titus sit in the Temple of God (which was destroyed) declaring to be God?
Was Titus the False Christ that Jesus warns about in Mat 24?
Was the below passage from Daniel fulfilled by Antiochus or Titus?
36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
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GaryA
Guest
What parts of the description of events in Daniel 11:5-45 can be positively identified as having taken place in our past, but after 70 A.D.?Let's see, the temple was destroyed, so...
Can you identify what the A of D would have been in 70 AD?
Do you really believe that Titus was the Man of Sin discussed by Paul? Did Titus sit in the Temple of God (which was destroyed) declaring to be God?
Was Titus the False Christ that Jesus warns about in Mat 24?
Was the below passage from Daniel fulfilled by Antiochus or Titus?
36 "Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
Who would you say is the king of the north?
Who would you say is the king of the south?
Based on the particular use of the words 'the end' in each place where it is found in Daniel 11:5-45, would you agree that the overall description of events represents a short or long period of time? How short or how long?
What parts of the description of events in Daniel 11:5-45 can be positively identified as having taken place in our past, but after 70 A.D.?
Who would you say is the king of the north?
Who would you say is the king of the south?
Based on the particular use of the words 'the end' in each place where it is found in Daniel 11:5-45, would you agree that the overall description of events represents a short or long period of time? How short or how long?
Dan 11:1-2 Darius was followed by Cambyses (530-522 BC), Gaumata (522 BC), Darius I (522-486 BC), and Xerxes (486-465 BC). Xerxes was the richest of all due to his conquests and severe taxation.
Dan 11:3-4 Alexander the Great (323 BC)
Dan 11:5 King of South (Egypt) was Ptolemy I Soter (323-285 BC). One of his princes was Seleucus Nicator (322-280 BC)
Dan 11:6 Daughter was Berenice (285-246 BC). King of North was Antiochus II Theos (261-246 BC)
Dan 11:7-9 Ptolemy III Euergetes (246-221 BC) conquered King of the North, Seleucus Callinicus (246-226 BC) of Syria. Ptolemy III returned to Egypt with great booty and outlived Seleucus by 6 years, Seleucus attempted an attack on Egypt but returned to Syria having failed..
Dan 11:10 The Sons of Seleucus were Seleucus III Ceraunus (227-223 BC) and Antiochus III the Great (223-186 BC).
Dan 11:11 The King of the South, Ptolemy IV Philopator (221-204 BC) defeated the King of the North, Anticochus III, at Raphia in 217 BC.
Dan 11:13 King of the North, Antiochus III, assembled a great army and attacked Egypt in 201 BC.
Dan 11:14 Others like Philip V of Macedonia helped Antiochus fight Ptolemy V (203-181 BC). Violent man referred to Jews who tried to help Antiochus fulfill vision of Chapter 8 but they failed.
Dan 11:15 King of the North, Antiochus, defeated fortified city of Sidon (198 BC).
Dan 11:17 Antiochus III daughter, Cleopatra, was given in marriage to Ptolemy V of Egypt to undermine Egypt but Cleopatra sided with her husband over her father.
Dan 11:18-19 Antoichus III fights in Asia Minor and Aegean region and is defeated by Roman Lucius Cornelius Scipio. Defeated Antiochus having lost all his gains returned to his own land and died while trying to plunder a temple.
Dan 11:20 Seleucus IV Philopator (187-176 BC), Antiochus's son, arose in his place and ruled for only 11 years.
Dan 11:21 A Vile Person was Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-164 BC).
Dan 11:22 Prince of the Covenant was Onias III, the high priest in Jerusalem who bore that title.
Dan 11:23-24 Antiochus IV took from rich and gave to poor.
Dan 11:25-26 King of the South was Ptolemy Philometor (181-145 BC) of Egypt. Those who ate at his table were trusted counselors who betrayed him.
Dan 11:27 Both Ptolemy and Antiochus resorted to deceit and betrayal in working out truce arrangements.
Dan 11:28 The Holy Covenant refers to Israel. On his way back to Syria, Antiochus looted the temple in Jerusalem and killed many people.
Now here is where many scholars think verses 29-35 continue to refer to Antiochus IV desecrating the temple and the Maccabees Revolt. While a solid case can be made for this view, I have my doubts based on the use of "Appointed time" and that "it shall not be like the former or latter," to start verse 29. Also, the Abomination of Desolation of Antiochus was already covered in Chapter 8. I am also not comfortable with the notion that ships from Cyprus represented Rome forcing Antiochus to leave Egypt.
If you look at the phrase, "Appointed time" as used by Daniel, it is used first in Dan 8:
Daniel 8:19 NKJV
And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.
This verse is regarded by many as a flash forward to the end times. The next use of "appointed time" is in Dan 10:
Daniel 10:1 NKJV
In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a message was revealed to Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar. The message was true, but the appointed time was long; and he understood the message, and had understanding of the vision.
A few hundred years isn't long in the scheme of things Daniel covers. Chapter 10 is very spiritual in nature. It deals with the "Glorious Man," Michael and the "Prince of Persia" who is Satan or Satanic. Verse 14 of Ch 10 clearly deals with the end times.
To me by Daniel 11:35 we have jumped ahead to the last days.
Daniel 11:35 NKJV
And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
This refinement and purification is the same language used in Zech 13 which is clearly latter days.
Zechariah 13:9 NKJV
I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "
This to me is a big clue that by Dan 11:35 we are in the last days therefore Dan 11:36 deals with the Man of Sin. Personally I think Verse 29 is the jump ahead place. This Man of Sin or King is unknown at this point. None of the historical figures fit as all had wives and/or children. None as far as I know claimed to be above God, although Antiochus came close.
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GaryA
Guest
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GaryA
Guest
So -- let me see if I have this correct...
Daniel 11:1-28 briefly describes a 400+ year history -- and then, abruptly jumps 2000+ years?
Certainly the word 'he' in verse 29 is describing the same person / entity as the word 'he' in verse 28.
What about 'him' / 'he' in verse 30?
What about 'his' in verse 31?
What about 'he' in verse 32?
Do you think that verse 33 is aligned with Luke 21:24?
Is verse 35 a "continuation", of sorts, of verse 33?
How long is the time span of 'even to the time of the end' in verse 35?
Grammatically speaking -- who do you think 'the king' in verse 36 refers back to in the passage? Is it the same 'he' in the previous verses?
Same 'he' in verses 37-39?
Now - look at 'him' in verse 40 -- after 'And at the time of the end...' -- same 'he'?
Is the second 'him' in verse 40 the king of the south - such that the first 'him' is the king of the north? -- or, are both 'him'-s in verse 40 a third king who is neither the king of the north nor the king of the south? Does this mean that 'the king' in verse 36 the king of the north? Or, is it the aforementioned third king? If so, where else in the passage is this third king mentioned?
Keep reading -- several more 'he' / 'him'...
Same 'he' all the way to verse 45?
Which of all of these 'he'-s and 'him'-s are the same person / entity?
How many different persons / entities are being discussed here with all of these 'he'-s, 'him'-s, etc.
One thing I will say --- there certainly does seem to be a 'jump' in time between verse 39 and verse 40...
If it is a very large jump in time ( say, 2000+ years ) -- what does that say about the identity of the 'king' in verse 36?
Daniel 11:1-28 briefly describes a 400+ year history -- and then, abruptly jumps 2000+ years?
Certainly the word 'he' in verse 29 is describing the same person / entity as the word 'he' in verse 28.
What about 'him' / 'he' in verse 30?
What about 'his' in verse 31?
What about 'he' in verse 32?
Do you think that verse 33 is aligned with Luke 21:24?
Is verse 35 a "continuation", of sorts, of verse 33?
How long is the time span of 'even to the time of the end' in verse 35?
Grammatically speaking -- who do you think 'the king' in verse 36 refers back to in the passage? Is it the same 'he' in the previous verses?
Same 'he' in verses 37-39?
Now - look at 'him' in verse 40 -- after 'And at the time of the end...' -- same 'he'?
Is the second 'him' in verse 40 the king of the south - such that the first 'him' is the king of the north? -- or, are both 'him'-s in verse 40 a third king who is neither the king of the north nor the king of the south? Does this mean that 'the king' in verse 36 the king of the north? Or, is it the aforementioned third king? If so, where else in the passage is this third king mentioned?
Keep reading -- several more 'he' / 'him'...
Same 'he' all the way to verse 45?
Which of all of these 'he'-s and 'him'-s are the same person / entity?
How many different persons / entities are being discussed here with all of these 'he'-s, 'him'-s, etc.
One thing I will say --- there certainly does seem to be a 'jump' in time between verse 39 and verse 40...
If it is a very large jump in time ( say, 2000+ years ) -- what does that say about the identity of the 'king' in verse 36?
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Gary,
All good points and comments. I use the NKJV STUDY BIBLE, Second Edition, Earl Radmacher. He agrees with you that the "he" or "him" continues to be Antiochus up to and including verse 34. Then even Earl Radmacher sees a 2,000 + year jump in verse 36. His comments are as follows:
THE KING: Many ancient and modern interpreters have concluded that at this point a new person, the Antichrist, is introduced. This king is distinguished from the king of the North (v. 40); therefore he cannot be Antiochus Epiphanes.
The rest of the chapter, according to my study Bible, refers to the end times. I tend to agree.
Again, grammatically it all flows as one "he" or "him" throughout the whole chapter, but as it was interpreted, we have many figures at play over 300 + years. The "King" in verse 36 does not seem to fit any past historical figure as none of the kings of the past disregarded women (v. 37) nor could be said to have honored gods of fortresses (v. 38), or foreign gods that their fathers did not know. But back to v. 36, this phrase:
...and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished...
could certainly be attributed to the Wrath of God or the Lamb that puts an end to his rule. I am a mere mortal who, like you, is trying to figure this all out so what do I know? I do know this, scholars far more accomplished than me see verse 36 as the future Antichrist and these same guys think 9:27 introduces the Antichrist too. To accept that one must see a 2,000 + year jump and that the 70th Week of Daniel remains open.
For the life of me, I cannot locate the A of D in AD 70 or any other time post Jesus thus His comments in Mat 24:15 must remain unfulfilled. There is enough evidence to suggest the Man of Sin (2 Thes 2) agrees with Dan 11:36 meaning there will be another A of D. If we accept this, then perhaps the whole chapter of Dan 11 is future and is a dual prophesy. After all, Daniel covers this material in previous chapters and chapter 10 is certainly spiritual and is reminiscent of Revelation Chapter 10.
Chapter 12 appears to be entirely future as the resurrection is mentioned in v. 2. The A of D in v. 11 cannot be the same as in Dan 8:13 because there the time from the A of D being set up until it was cleansed was 2,300 days, not the 1,290 days spoken of in Dan 12:11.
Even if we assume that all of Dan is past and that the A of D occurred around AD 70, does this mean the next thing to happen in the Olivet is Mat 24:28?? This would mean we have a very long Tribulation period (which is fine) but it also means the next thing to happen is Armageddon and that would mean there is no future Antichrist or Man of Sin. This would mean a ~2,000 year gap between the Man of Sin (Titus) and the Return of Christ. To me, this would void Paul's warning in 2 Thes 2 and Jesus' warning in Mat 24:24-26.
I'm critical of Pre-Tribbers because their doctrine reverses the correct order of which Christ appears next. None of us have seen Christ and those who think Christ can appear at any time for a "rapture" are very susceptible to being fooled by a Super Natural Christ-Like Being with unearthly powers who claims to be Christ.
This same criticism applies to those who think the Man of Sin was 2,000 years ago if in fact he is a future character. The biggest and best clue we have to distinguish between the real Christ and the false Christ is knowing the correct sequence and where we are in history. It's clear the world will be tested (just as Christ was). Getting this right could mean the difference between life and death and worshiping the False Christ instead of waiting for the real Christ to return.
The stakes are high.
All good points and comments. I use the NKJV STUDY BIBLE, Second Edition, Earl Radmacher. He agrees with you that the "he" or "him" continues to be Antiochus up to and including verse 34. Then even Earl Radmacher sees a 2,000 + year jump in verse 36. His comments are as follows:
THE KING: Many ancient and modern interpreters have concluded that at this point a new person, the Antichrist, is introduced. This king is distinguished from the king of the North (v. 40); therefore he cannot be Antiochus Epiphanes.
The rest of the chapter, according to my study Bible, refers to the end times. I tend to agree.
Again, grammatically it all flows as one "he" or "him" throughout the whole chapter, but as it was interpreted, we have many figures at play over 300 + years. The "King" in verse 36 does not seem to fit any past historical figure as none of the kings of the past disregarded women (v. 37) nor could be said to have honored gods of fortresses (v. 38), or foreign gods that their fathers did not know. But back to v. 36, this phrase:
...and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished...
could certainly be attributed to the Wrath of God or the Lamb that puts an end to his rule. I am a mere mortal who, like you, is trying to figure this all out
so what do I know? I do know this, scholars far more accomplished than me see verse 36 as the future Antichrist and these same guys think 9:27 introduces the Antichrist too. To accept that one must see a 2,000 + year jump and that the 70th Week of Daniel remains open.For the life of me, I cannot locate the A of D in AD 70 or any other time post Jesus thus His comments in Mat 24:15 must remain unfulfilled. There is enough evidence to suggest the Man of Sin (2 Thes 2) agrees with Dan 11:36 meaning there will be another A of D. If we accept this, then perhaps the whole chapter of Dan 11 is future and is a dual prophesy. After all, Daniel covers this material in previous chapters and chapter 10 is certainly spiritual and is reminiscent of Revelation Chapter 10.
Chapter 12 appears to be entirely future as the resurrection is mentioned in v. 2. The A of D in v. 11 cannot be the same as in Dan 8:13 because there the time from the A of D being set up until it was cleansed was 2,300 days, not the 1,290 days spoken of in Dan 12:11.
Even if we assume that all of Dan is past and that the A of D occurred around AD 70, does this mean the next thing to happen in the Olivet is Mat 24:28?? This would mean we have a very long Tribulation period (which is fine) but it also means the next thing to happen is Armageddon and that would mean there is no future Antichrist or Man of Sin. This would mean a ~2,000 year gap between the Man of Sin (Titus) and the Return of Christ. To me, this would void Paul's warning in 2 Thes 2 and Jesus' warning in Mat 24:24-26.
I'm critical of Pre-Tribbers because their doctrine reverses the correct order of which Christ appears next. None of us have seen Christ and those who think Christ can appear at any time for a "rapture" are very susceptible to being fooled by a Super Natural Christ-Like Being with unearthly powers who claims to be Christ.
This same criticism applies to those who think the Man of Sin was 2,000 years ago if in fact he is a future character. The biggest and best clue we have to distinguish between the real Christ and the false Christ is knowing the correct sequence and where we are in history. It's clear the world will be tested (just as Christ was). Getting this right could mean the difference between life and death and worshiping the False Christ instead of waiting for the real Christ to return.
The stakes are high.
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Powemm
Guest
The World Is Coming To An End
The essence of heaven is not getting man into heaven... its "allowing God" into man...
God came as a man to the earth....
The essence of heaven is not getting man into heaven... its "allowing God" into man...
God came as a man to the earth....
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GaryA
Guest
I believe that the phrase 'till the indignation be accomplished' in verse 36 is a reference to a future point in time.
I believe that the phrase 'At the time appointed' in verse 29 represents a "small jump / skip" in the passage of time as represented in the 'flow' of the description.
I believe that the phrase 'And at the time of the end' in verse 40 does represents a "large jump / skip" in the passage of time as represented in the 'flow' of the description.
However, what I am trying to get across to you is that ----- * there * is * no * gap * ----- the prophecy includes the past ~2000 years -- albeit, "in a few short phrases"...
I do not have time now -- I will explain in more detail later why I believe this -- and, who 'the king' of verse 36 actually is -- and, how it ties in with other prophetic passages of scripture.
More later...
I believe that the phrase 'At the time appointed' in verse 29 represents a "small jump / skip" in the passage of time as represented in the 'flow' of the description.
I believe that the phrase 'And at the time of the end' in verse 40 does represents a "large jump / skip" in the passage of time as represented in the 'flow' of the description.
However, what I am trying to get across to you is that ----- * there * is * no * gap * ----- the prophecy includes the past ~2000 years -- albeit, "in a few short phrases"...
I do not have time now -- I will explain in more detail later why I believe this -- and, who 'the king' of verse 36 actually is -- and, how it ties in with other prophetic passages of scripture.
More later...
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GaryA
Guest
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Kerry
Guest
to the OP, when the Father looks at the Son and say's go get em. Thats when the rapture happens.
I believe that the phrase 'till the indignation be accomplished' in verse 36 is a reference to a future point in time.
I believe that the phrase 'At the time appointed' in verse 29 represents a "small jump / skip" in the passage of time as represented in the 'flow' of the description.
I believe that the phrase 'And at the time of the end' in verse 40 does represents a "large jump / skip" in the passage of time as represented in the 'flow' of the description.
However, what I am trying to get across to you is that ----- * there * is * no * gap * ----- the prophecy includes the past ~2000 years -- albeit, "in a few short phrases"...
I do not have time now -- I will explain in more detail later why I believe this -- and, who 'the king' of verse 36 actually is -- and, how it ties in with other prophetic passages of scripture.
More later...
ok..... waiting with baited breath.
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GaryA
Guest
"Please bear with me --- Lord willing, I will get there..."
( This will take some explanation; therefore, it will take some time. )
"Please bear with me --- Lord willing, I will get there..."
( This will take some explanation; therefore, it will take some time. )
No problem Gary. It's not like the Rapture could happen tomorrow, LOL
Great post Elect. The timing of this event can be easily proven. The 4 winds
MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.
Its obvious to see its AFTER the tribulation period. The sun and moon darkened come the Day of the Lord. You got the LAST trumpet being blown
EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
FOUR WINDS! We know theres only 2 resurrections. Zeke 37 speaks of one of those resurrections. Its not the great white throne resurrection as that happens after the 1000yr period of rest. That only leaves the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] resurrection of the 1Cor.15 event. In the twinkling of an eye. Its all about the 4 winds. It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12} for the 1000 yr period of rest. The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that in scripture
More proof of when this so called "rapture" event happens
1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -
ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -
ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord.
1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -
ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -
ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord.
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GaryA
Guest
I believe that this is "the biggest and best clue we have to distinguish..." :
That is about as far as it would get -- and I would know that this is not Jesus.
The Bible instructs me that, "when I see Jesus" - He will "appear" in the fashion that is described in these passages of scripture:
~ Isaiah 13:6-13
~ Isaiah 40:5
~ Joel 2:1-31
~ Zephaniah 1:14-18
~ Matthew 24:30-31
~ Mark 13:26-27
~ Luke 21:27
~ Acts 1:11
~ 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
~ 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
~ Revelation 1:7
~ Revelation 19:11-16
"Just to name a few..."
If [someone] "appeared" to me (personally), claiming to be Jesus - I would immediately know that it was a lie...
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GaryA
Guest
Wall,
I generally agree with most of what you said above. However...
...not sure I agree 1 Cor 15 "twinkling of the eye" event changing of the living occurs before the Millennium. I see it as after the millennium and part of the final resurrection. Note that there is no mention of Christ or His gathering in 1 Cor 15:50-52? No mention of angels. Further, this is the ONLY passage that refers to a "last trumpet."
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Therefore, I see this is the FINAL resurrection of those who did not rule with Christ - those who were asleep for 1,000+ years.
I generally agree with most of what you said above. However...
...not sure I agree 1 Cor 15 "twinkling of the eye" event changing of the living occurs before the Millennium. I see it as after the millennium and part of the final resurrection. Note that there is no mention of Christ or His gathering in 1 Cor 15:50-52? No mention of angels. Further, this is the ONLY passage that refers to a "last trumpet."
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Therefore, I see this is the FINAL resurrection of those who did not rule with Christ - those who were asleep for 1,000+ years.
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GaryA
Guest
Except that, the Trumpet Events take place before the Millennium.
Are you saying that the Wrath of God takes place before the Trumpet Events???