Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[blue_ladybug]

O
Please, please, please.
Supped has nothing to do with drinking!
It means eating!

How can you call yourself a minister with so little understanding?
Get back to the basics before teaching any further.
Supped means to have supper. Use a different translation if you don't understand the KJV.

[h=1]KJV Dictionary Definition: sup[/h][h=3]sup[/h]SUP, v.t. To take into the mouth with the lips, as a liquid; to take or drink by a little at a time; to sip.
There I'll sup
Balm and nectar in my cup.
SUP, v.i. To eat the evening meal.
When they had supped,they brought Tobias in.
SUP, v.t. To treat with supper.
Sup them well. Not in use.
SUP, n. A small mouthful, as of liquor or broth; a little taken with the lips; a sip.

Ukorin, this is from the KJV dictionary. As you can see, the word "sup" here means to sip, or drink a liquid such as wine or water. Maybe YOU need to do some research before you accuse someone else of not knowing what they are talking about!! Get yourself educated before teaching any further!!

 

[Ukorin]

KJV Dictionary Definition: sup

sup

SUP, v.t. To take into the mouth with the lips, as a liquid; to take or drink by a little at a time; to sip.
There I'll sup
Balm and nectar in my cup.
SUP, v.i. To eat the evening meal.
When they had supped,they brought Tobias in.
SUP, v.t. To treat with supper.
Sup them well. Not in use.
SUP, n. A small mouthful, as of liquor or broth; a little taken with the lips; a sip.

Ukorin, this is from the KJV dictionary. As you can see, the word "sup" here means to sip, or drink a liquid such as wine or water. Maybe YOU need to do some research before you accuse someone else of not knowing what they are talking about!! Get yourself educated before teaching any further!!

And to use the word as "sipped" in context would be wrong.
Look at the context.
Look at any other translation.
Look at the Greek.

 

[Kimber321]

So Lot was an active participant? Well, that's just nasty.

 

[Brother_Don]

Jesus turned the dirty dish water into wine, it wasn't grapes, and from what the Word says it was tasty. Not stronger than the wine that was consumed earlier, just tasted better. The wine Jesus made probably had so much Love in it, the people was high on the Love in the wine, not the wine. Just my thoughts on it.

 

[Jason0047]

If the LORD has put the conviction upon to abstain from alcohol then by all means I would do such. And I agree with your perception that the 'fruit of the vine' in itself does not necessary indicate that it depicts a fermented drink. It could have several connotations.

While it is lawful for a Christian to drink soberly and in moderation in private, the higher road or calling is to abstain. For the Kingdom of God is not meat or drink, but joy in the Holy Ghost.

However, the motivation to represent that 'the fruit of the vine" is not an fermented drink is obviously related to the passage in Matthew 2:23 "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene."

If you can show where it was spoken by the prophets that "he shall be called a Nararene" that would really affirm your position yet I haven't found any reference to "Nazarene' except but in the Book of Numbers, chapter 6;

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:
3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.
5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no rasor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

I don't believe Jesus took a Nazaraite vow. Nazarites were not even allowed to eat grapes. Jesus is a King and Proverbs 31 says wine (fermented wine) is not for kings.

However. they are other scriptures that represent some of the other possible connatations:

Song 7:1-10
7:1 How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman.
2 Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies.
3 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins.
4 Thy neck is as a tower of ivory; thine eyes like the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bath-rabbim: thy nose is as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus.
5 Thine head upon thee is like Carmel, and the hair of thine head like purple; the king is held in the galleries.
6 How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights!
7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.
8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples;
9 And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak.
10 I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me.

Woe, I hope that is not too provocation for under aged readers.

The Bible talking about the realities of the beauty of a woman and how that is comparable to nature is not the same thing as creating more wine to get people more drunk. The Bible does not talk about the intimate details of the act of sex and nor does it give us clear description of a woman's body parts in such a way that is written like descriptive write up for a porn novel. Back in the day, you had to be a certain age to read Song of Solomon. But in our modern world, it is very mild compared to the types of things we are bombarded with currently.

But the "fruit juice' excuse? I recall a quote from George Washington in which it held that it was better to offer no excuse than offer up a bad one. While as I stated that there are other connatations, if one was going to go with the 'fruit of the vine' being a drink, I would go with the water that came down from Heaven as referenced in Genesis 1:2, which water from heaven would be ice since the medium temperature -275 C which is real, real cold Fahrenheit. Put some legs under that walking on water claim too.

Unless they are the apostles mentioned in the Bible, I really can't confirm if someone in the past is being truthful or not about God's Word.

Yet the Biblical reference for term 'wine' is notated in Genesis 9:20-21: And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. However, likewise the connotation of Noah nakedness being uncovered in itself does not necessary represent that it referred unto his person being seen naked.

I believe the Bible uses the word "wine" to refer to both fermented and unfermented wine. This is based on looking at the context.

As for Noah's nakedness. I believe this was a phrase that was used to reference Noah's wife.

Then again, I have also heard of being drunk in the spirit too where one is so full of the word that just presume things from their imaginations which results in their deny the truth just to defend their faith, which speaks for itself.

I believe the Scriptures teach that others have mistaken true believers for appearing to be drunk while in the Spirit. While this is true, it is also equally true that there are false prophets today who try to get people to talk gibberish, or to make animal noises, or to roll around on the floor, or act crazy, too. This is wrong of course.

 

[Jason0047]

Do you realize that if you are wrong that you just said Jesus was immoral and used His powers for evil? Then you judged others who drink moderately and claim to be above (you are not) them by walking the higher road. You judge the effects of alcoholism yet your life has never been touched by it.

This also reminds me of another moral issue that some Christians are not able to see.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-tell-hosea-marry-prostitute.html#post1649681

 

[Jason0047]

Kind of hard to understand you when you make up words. If you mean people that abstain, then say people that abstain.

Abstentionist is a real world in reference to alcohol and Christianity.

Christian views on alcohol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People that "struggle with alcoholism" aren't saved.

Did you ever read Luke 18:9-14?

If you are drinking in front of them, you are running with the wrong crowd.
Not causing your brother to stumble is exercising discretion, not completely abstaining. Paul said all things are lawful for him, but not expedient.
Let your moderation be known unto all men. If it bothers you, don't do it. If it's okay with you but not your brother, practice discretion and wait for a better time.

I do not disagree with what you said here.

You're flogging a dead horse. Twisting scripture isn't going to change them.

I am not twisting Scripture. To do so would place my soul at risk. I regard every word within the Scriptures as precious and Holy. You merely believe I am twisting Scripture because you can't understand the Word that have spoken to you.

Christ was at a wedding party, not a prayer meeting. The custom was to celebrate with wine, and when they ran out He refilled the vats. It is that simple, and that clear.

Your words are just opinion. Prove your case with Scripture.

You try to make Christ an accomplice by Him making the wine, which He would never be, so you say He didn't make wine.

Please look up in a couple of dictionaries on the word "wine." Please look at all the definitons.

Then by that standard you must make God an accomplice to drug use and alcoholism by supplying us with everything we need to indulge that lust. Is He also a pornographer because He made woman and we pervert the use of her? Gun manufacturers are murderers, and babies cause abortion. How long have you been a member of the democratic party? You are so far out in left field you can't see the pitcher. Step in and catch a few grounders.

There is a big difference in creating a substance to get people drunk that Jesus knows people are going to drink versus creating the stage of humanity.

 

[gb9]

hello Jason. just a quick thought: you said above that it is lawful to have a drink, under certain conditions. so by saying that then it is a choice. so why are you condemning people for not making your or your denomination's choice. the key word here is choice. when it is a either or type choice, it is not good to try to force one over the other.

 

[Jason0047]

hello Jason. just a quick thought: you said above that it is lawful to have a drink, under certain conditions. so by saying that then it is a choice. so why are you condemning people for not making your or your denomination's choice. the key word here is choice. when it is a either or type choice, it is not good to try to force one over the other.

Well, while something may be lawful for us, not all things are profitable, though. In other words, it is lawful for you to play around a bunch of spitting cobras. But is it profitable? No.

 

[Brother_Don]

i think the water into wine story shows our Lords sense of humor. i can see Jesus sitting at the wedding watching people drink wine, some getting trashed, thinking to Himself I'd rather drink dishwater, then the wine runs out. Then Jesus thinking I'll turn that dishwater to wine. the thread just got me thinking this morning, thought i'd share thoughts.

 

[thecreationtutor]

sounds like a baptist thing - the filthy 5 - so I set my ministry to attack those things and those things alone, and show disdain for anyone who doesn't hold my conviction - sounds more like legalism definition

i may be fundamental in what I believe but i'm not mad about it

 

[john832]

Know what the difference between a Methodist and a Baptist is? When a Methodist passes you in a liquor store, they will say hi.

 

[thecreationtutor]

I am not trying to elevate a denomination - just notice some things are classic identifiers of what denomination it come from - i don't really have anything good image of Methodists but liberal and non committal

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It seems this verse is being tossed about quiet frequently regarding drinking 'alcoholic beverages' so let's look at it in context and see exactly what is being meant: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Romans 14:10-20 [SUP]10 [/SUP]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

The kingdom of God is not meat and drink - the kingdom of God is not acheived by what you eat or drink because meat [or drink - context] doesn't destroy the work of God. All things indeed are pure but if you believe, let's say, eating meat or drinking an alcoholic beverage is wrong or offensive then for you it is evil to eat or drink of it. Nor should we eat or drink in the presence of those who believe it is offensive; i.e. the eating of meat or drink, as to offend them or be a stumbling block.

 

[BradC]

Why would any believer who has the Spirit need to drink any beverage with alcohol? If they say they need it, for what reason? Do they need it to loosen up and be joyful or happy? Did the Son of God, who was filled with the Spirit, need to drink fermented wine for any reason? If we are continually filled with the Spirit, do we need to drink alcoholic beverages including fermented wine? Does it help us think with God? Does it quicken our mortal bodies? Does it make us socially acceptable to others? Do we drink it for health reasons or do the scriptures help us with that by giving us a prescription for health, including a sound mind? If there is no good reason to consume alcoholic beverages, including wine, then why consume it. I believe the risk outweighs by far any benefit that alcohol can provide the body or the soul.

 

[jkalyna]

"People that "struggle with alcoholism" aren't saved."

Thankfully and hopefully, God and Jesus sorted that out...

Mat_21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.

Mat_21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

*Thank you for reminding of this scripture.. I woke up with this on my spirit, and*grabbed*the bible to find these verses. This is so powerful that it sums up everything. Jesus called the*Pharisees, the Religious bunch, hypocrites, you make long prayers, and wear long robes, and*tithe*of mint, but forgot the more important things. Love, he said they wouldn't even lift a finger to help anyone on the sabbath, when Jesus pulled the donkey out of the ditch that day, called him names, a sabbath breaker. This blew the cord right out of the bottle, of religion, it is insensitive to God's love, for people. Believe he said, didn't say anything else that he wants from us. BELIEVE. JOhn 3:16 That who so ever believeth shall be saved. Christ was poured out, for many he said, emptied out of pride, self wants, and his love for us. THere is power in the blood of Christ.*

 

[jkalyna]

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