Hi Angel,
Actually, when each passage is considered in context none of them support OSAS.
It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
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Hi Angel,
Actually, when each passage is considered in context none of them support OSAS.
I think we can simply ask Paul.
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. {to speak...: Gr. for their railing}
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:11-15 KJV)
11 But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.
14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. {to speak...: Gr. for their railing}
15 For some are already turned aside after Satan. (1Ti 5:11-15 KJV)
You seem to want to discuss me instead of scripture. Have you read the Bible even once? You go around the Mulberry Bush, saying things & proving nothing. But like the Lord Jesus, my response shall be "It is written!"
Your phrase. My POV is that the only Word of God readily available to men in general is the Bible. If you have some other document to add, prove it is the Word of God -- or give up any objection.
Years ago, I thought that the judgment determined where you went after death, based on works. One day a man stuck a Bible under my nose and said, "Read this." I did. I didn't relent of my error at once, but it planted a seed. Soon I trusted the Lord Jesus as my Savior and was born again -- a big Gestalt shift.
Is not His word like a fire, and like a hammer that breaks the rocks?
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself.
Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Damnation is a mistranslation. The word is krima (cf. our word crime) which refers to a condemnatory verdict , with no reference to the Lake of Fire. They did something wrong and are justly blamed for sin. (There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, Rom 8). One might be condemned in the minor sense that one is caught in sin, but that doesn't mean condemned to the Lake of Fire. Faith is an unlikely translation here; translate it pledge.
"But younger widows refuse: for when they have waxed wanton [become super-estrogenic!] against Christ, they desire to marry; having condemnation, because they have rejected their first pledge. And withal they learn also to be idle, going about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I desire therefore that the younger widows marry, bear children, rule the household, give no occasion to the adversary for reviling: for already some are turned aside after Satan."
I hope you are not claiming that after a young widow makes a vow to serve the Lord as a celibate unmarried servant of the Lord, she should then be sent to the Lake of fire for desiring to get married due to a sexual itch. Such persons have no business taking any such vow.
Paul is apparently forbidding young widows to take this vow and go on the church payroll. Indeed, it may be a great stumbling block for anyone who has a sexual itch to take a vow of celibacy -- haven't we seen that in the RCC where a huge amoung of pederasty has taken place due to this blunder, when the Bible says an elder is to be the husband of one wife; and Peter was married.
This passage doesn't mention salvation or losing it. It doesn't say that the widows involved were born again; many church members are unsaved. And it doesn't say that those who sin this way go to the Lake of Fire. It is certainly possible for Christians to be tempted by satan and sin, which does not make them "lose salvation." Indeed it is self-contradictory to claim "lose salvation" since salvation is not a chance to be saved, but salvation with becoming a child of God and eternal life.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
To an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Butch, the evidence is overwhelming. What you need to do is to trust the Lord Jesus as your only and sufficient Savior. Once you trust Him, you can know that you have salvation -- not a chance at salvation, but eternal life. He died for you and paid for your sins. He offers you His salvation. All He asks of you is to trust Him. Why can you not do that now?
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Kneel at the cross;
Christ will meet you there;
Come while He waits for you.
List' to His voice;
Leave with Him your care;
And begin life anew;
Kneel at the cross;
Leave cares behind;
Kneel at the cross;
Jesus will meet you there.
Come ye sinners,
Tired and weary,
Weak & wounded,
Sick and sore;
If you tarry till your better;
You will never come at all.
Not the righteous, not the righteous;
Sinners Jesus came to call.
Well Apostol, the verse you quote is one way to present the gospel, but it is rare. Over and over many times it is faith is Christ alone that saves. In quoting your verse do you mean to deny that in Acts 16 where it says,
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"
that is not the gospel? Is John 3:16 not the gospel? When we are told that justification is by faith, is that not the gospel?
Your verse is rare, and thus must be understood in the abundance of the believe-only passages.
Yes, repentance saves. But repentance is a change of mind. The only change of mind that saves is from not trusting to trusting Christ as Savior (faith, belief). Metanoia is repentance, which means a change of mind, not primarily sorrow for sin (metamelomai like Judas had who hung himself), nor is it determination to turn over a new leaf.
As to baptized, the only baptism which is salvific is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which puts us into the Body of Christ and thus into co-crucifixion with Christ (Romans 6).
Believe in Christ is the only action by man required for salvation.
Repent is another way to say it, though it can be misleading if not understood.
Baptized is not something a man does. It is something done TO the man.
Many things were done to get our salvation, most importantly Christ died for us on the cross. But only one thing man is to do, namely believe -- that is man's only part.
T
TaylorTG
Guest
That is a twisted logic, sir.
Once we repent and acknowledge Christ's sacrifice and passion, we would then be offering ourselves to the Lord via obedience and submission to him.
You say that we cannot obey God of our own accord. That is a twisted logic; common sense tells us that our free-will allows us to either obey or disobey God.
It's true that our works are useless if done in a state of mortal sin, but our good works, if done in obedience to the Lord's commands, can be very pleased to God. Review Simon's conversion; Paul's preaching/debating.
Paul, by the dictations of the Lord, spread the good news far and wide; debating skeptics of all environments; educating the peoples. The Lord guided him, and Paul listened.
Should Paul's obedience not be awarded? Keep this in mind: If Paul haven't bothered to take the time and effort to educate people, then those people would still be in the dark about Christ.
Paul made salvation easier for both himself and others by his good works, which were done via obedience and submission to God's will.
AMEN! This PLAINLY says they had salvation & lost it in no uncertain terms......excellent find.
You expect that the older the manuscripts the more physical damage. But that doesn't negate their value. I wondered by you posted a picture of what looked like a damaged page or a messed up photo. How does damage on one page negate the value of this ancient copy of the Bible?
The fact that the Vatican library owns the "Vaticanus" codex -- what does that prove? Will you throw out all the manuscripts owned by RCC and Orthodox? Will you throw out the KJV if it is shown that the Eastern Catholics standardized the Greek text behind the KJV? Or will you throw out the KJV if it is shown that King James was a sodomist and that the Pilgrim Fathers preferred the older Geneva Bible?
You claim: "God provided thousands of matching ancient manuscripts (some dating prior to your 300-400 AD)"
Now lets see the proof for that one.
What manuscript before AD 300 has the John 8 story in it? I don't recall a one. I do recall seeing that the papyri, the most ancient mss do not have it. The mss evidence is against that story as is its theology. And the cited ancient "Church Fathers" do not have this story. Why is it not in Tatian's Diatessaron of 2nd century AD?
"You expect that the older the manuscripts the more physical damage. But that doesn't negate their value. I wondered by you posted a picture of what looked like a damaged page or a messed up photo. How does damage on one page negate the value of this ancient copy of the Bible?"-atwood
the newer ink clearly doesn't match up to the ink beneath it. They use several different inks even cramming some on the edges. On top of that you think God would only produce ONE copy that agrees with no other? you dismiss the fact that the Sinaiticus agrees not with the Vaticanus? I am at a loss for words. So which is right Atwood? The vaticanus? or the Sinaiticus? this is ridiculous!
the newer ink clearly doesn't match up to the ink beneath it. They use several different inks even cramming some on the edges. On top of that you think God would only produce ONE copy that agrees with no other? you dismiss the fact that the Sinaiticus agrees not with the Vaticanus? I am at a loss for words. So which is right Atwood? The vaticanus? or the Sinaiticus? this is ridiculous!
If the evidence was overwhelming then you'd be able show where the Scriptures teach it, but you can't.
The passage you quoted from John 6 is speaking of the apostles. If you reads John 17 you'll see who they are.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. {sanctified...: or, truly sanctified}
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (Joh 17:6-24 KJV)
Notice Jesus used the past tense, those you gave me. He didn't say anything about anyone else being given to Him. However, Isaiah had already prophesied about this and says why they were given to Christ.
18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. (Isa 8:18 KJV)
The verse from John 10 is in reference to the thief and says no one can snatch one out of God's hand. This passage doesn't address one leaving the faith.
P
phil112
Guest
Butch whether it be OSAS, sabbath, catholicism.....false doctrine imbibers don't take Paul's word for anything.
AMEN! This PLAINLY says they had salvation & lost it in no uncertain terms......excellent find.
It seems pretty clear that they cast off the Lord and followed after Satan. What's really scary is that one time on another forum I had a guy arguing that they were still saved even having followed Satan. It's amazing what some will say to protect those favorite doctrines.
"You claim: "God provided thousands of matching ancient manuscripts (some dating prior to your 300-400 AD)"
Now lets see the proof for that one."-Atwood.
The Magdalen Papyrus: possibly the earliest known fragments of the New Testament | Magdalen College Oxford
Now lets see the proof for that one."-Atwood.
The Magdalen Papyrus: possibly the earliest known fragments of the New Testament | Magdalen College Oxford
It's Angela!
And I know all about context from the numerous courses in Seminary I took on Hermeneutics! As I said, I have read the Bible over 50 times, and each time it confirms eternal security. When we are born again, we are God's children. A good parent never gives up on their child, and God is the best parent possible.
"The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, [SUP]26 [/SUP]for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:24-26
"But to all who did receive Him,
He gave them the right to be children of God,
to those who believe in His name," John 1:12
I will leave it to you to read those verses in context - which not only means within the chapter, but the book, the Testament and the Bible and in light of what Jesus Christ did for us. Context also means in light of who the book was written to, and the time and culture of the people. It does not mean you pull random scriptures out to prove a point which is not in the Bible.
Mark 3:29 (KJV) [SUP]29 [/SUP]But he (no matter who) that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
John 5:29 (KJV) [SUP]29 [/SUP]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
1 Corinthians 11:29 (KJV) [SUP]29 [/SUP]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
This means taking the Lord's super with unconfessed sin in their life.
1 Timothy 5:12 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP]Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
John 5:29 (KJV) [SUP]29 [/SUP]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
1 Corinthians 11:29 (KJV) [SUP]29 [/SUP]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
This means taking the Lord's super with unconfessed sin in their life.
1 Timothy 5:12 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP]Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.