When was Revelation 20:4,5 fulfilled?

[BradC]

Revelation 20:4,5

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those who are described in the A part of verse 4 are sitting on thrones, souls that were beheaded who did not worship the beast, nor his image and had not received his mark on their forehead or hands. These are souls of the dead who had been a witness of Jesus and the word of God and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. For these souls to have reigned with Christ for a thousand years there must have been a resurrection that took place. Some think that this resurrection pertains to what took place when Christ rose from the grave along with many others recorded in (Mt 27:52,53). Where these the ones (or the many of the saints) who were resurrected at the time of Christ and continued to live and reign for a thousand years?

Concerning those souls who were beheaded, when did they refuse to worship the beast and his image or take his mark and when did they start reigning with Christ for a thousand years? When was this fulfilled and by whom? Are there those who live among us as believers who have been offered but have refused to worship the beast, his image or taken his mark? I have not been offered nor had that priviledge, nor do I know of any who have done so and I know believers who presently live and are making disciples in more than 60 nations of the world. No such reports from them either over the past (30) years. Their is no evidence that this has been fulfilled and when this is fulfilled then they will reign for a thousand years with Christ.

The first resurrection includes those souls who were beheaded in verse 4 and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. We can't have more than one starting point for a thousand year reign with Christ. A worship of the beast and his image and a taking of the mark on the forehead or hand must also precede the resurrection that must take place for that thousand year reign to begin. There is no evidence of any of it and to produce such evidence must correlate with what has been written in Rev 20 and it can not be contrived or simulated with subjective or symbolic lamguage and understanding. That would produce nothing but confusion for believers. No one can simulate a bodily resurrection and the first resurrection is bodily.

 

[John_S]

NOTHING in Revelations has happened yet.

 

[BradC]

NOTHING in Revelations has happened yet.

What evidence or explanation would you give that would show these things have not happened yet?

 

[LT]

If this already been fulfilled, then the Battle of Armageddon has already taken place, and we are already in the millennial kingdom.
Does anyone think this is true?

I personally don't see the Tribulation as a seven year period, so I think the "mark of the beast" has happened and continues to be given out in a metaphorical sense. I see many people today who worship money and false religions, and I also see many who reject these. Asia, Africa, Asia and the Middle East all have massive persecution of believers. There are hundreds killed for their faith every day.
So from my interpretation, this verse is being fulfilled as we speak, but will not see completion until the Last Day comes.

I also believe the 1000 years are a part of the "eternal state", so I reject the Dispensation view of a "millennial kingdom".

 

[John_S]

What evidence or explanation would you give that would show these things have not happened yet?

You want me to PROVE that something hasn't happened yet?

When has Jesus Christ returned a SECOND time?
When has there been 1000 years without Satan?
When has there been the antichrist or the false prophet?
When has there been the 144,000 members of the Elect?
When has there been 2 witnesses?
When has WWIII happened with the near annihilation of the human race?

but I'm supposed to PROVE that something hasn't happened yet.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Revelation 20:4-5 has not been fulfilled yet. But it will be fulfilled in the near future.

Specifically at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble it will take place.

 

[starfield]

I think Revelation 20:4-5 should be read in conjunction with these passages, for scripture interprets scripture:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 6:4-5
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ephesians 2:5-6
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3:1-3
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Those who hear and believe the gospel pass from spiritual death to life (i.e. the spiritual, first resurrection), spiritually reign with Christ (Eph 2:6), and the second death, the lake of fire, have no power over them.

Also keep in mind that Revelation is highly symbolic.

 

[mpaper345]

This has not been fulfilled yet.

The beast system is in the future that does the beheading.

First the world will be split in to ten sections with a leader in each section which is the 10 horns.

The world will operate by a one world government.

A war will break out during the reign of the one world government which I believe will be the Arab world against the one world government in rebellion because the one world religious system will not recognize their fundamental beliefs and will stop them from practicing their ways and trying to convert people to their religion which will be a hate crime at that time.

The Arab governments will be in cooperation as all nations but the people of the Arab nations will not tolerate it and rebel which God said in Zechariah 14 that He will gather all nations together against Jerusalem to battle,all that do not love God,and Israel will be saved from it at that time.So all governments will be in cooperation but the people of the Arab nations will make war against the world.

That war will be so terrible,trumpet 6(Revelation 9)that the world will say that even with a one world government in place we still cannot solve the problems on earth and they will not trust governments anymore to solve their problems.

The New Age Christ,or the beast,or the man of sin,or the antichrist,or the stupid one,will appear and say that he can solve their problems,and that it is all about man with no authority above them.

He will claim to be above all that is called God or is worshipped and all religions will not be recognized anymore.The false prophet will do lying miracles to convince the world that the man of sin tapped in to nature and gained powers which the people believe that they will be able to do that too.

Which that is the plan to establish a world that is all about man with no governmental or religious authority above them which the beast system will make war against all the saints of God,which the Bible says that the saints will not be united with Christ until the man of sin appears claiming to be God and the Bible says that the beast makes war against the saints.

So the 10 horns,the 10 leaders want all governments and religions to fall and when the beast appears they hand their power over to him and that is how he gains control of the world.

They will make war against the saints and prevail against them.The saints will be caught up to be with Jesus and the wrath of God will come upon them leading up to the battle of Armageddon which the saints will come back with God in glorified bodies.

God will put them down and Jesus and the saints will rule over the earth for 1000 years over one sixth of the world that God spared at the battle of Armageddon which the world will continue to populate.

Satan will be bound during the 1000 years period.

Since the people that God spared at the battle of Armageddon took the mark of the beast and went against Israel they still have punishment coming but God postponed it for the 1000 years period.

Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit at the end of the 1000 years period and gather the world together to go against Jesus and the saints which God will defeat them.

The dead shall rise and be judged by Jesus which some could make it if they believed in a God and by their conscience for God is a fair judge and will not punish them if they never heard of the word of God.

The present earth and the present heaven will perish with the earth being tossed in to the lake of fire and the heavens will melt with fervent heat and the saints will move to the New Jerusalem,a new heaven and new earth,which is the place that Jesus went to prepare for the saints as told in John 14.

The Bible says that the wicked shall go in to the lower parts of the earth which is hell and hell and death shall be thrown in to the lake of fire so the earth will be thrown in to the lake of fire.

The present earth and present heaven have been tainted with sin by Lucifer's rebellion in heaven and man's rebellion on earth so they have to be purged with fire.

There is only 2 resurrections,one of the saints of God and one at the end of the 1000 years period.

During the reign of the one world government people can still be saved because they can still repent of their sins that God accepts,even though the one world government does not tolerate that interpretation of the Christianity,and if they are caught trying to convert someone it will be a hate crime punishable in the one world court system so they will have to do what they say underground,hush hush.

When the world takes the mark of the beast they cannot repent of their sins anymore and God will take all His children home.

As long as the world can repent of their sins the saints will remain on earth.

So the beast system which they behead the saints is in the future,and with technology that the world can communicate with each other and travel to any part of the world,and the United Nations,United Religions,World Trade Center,Europe becoming closer and closer,it seems like it cannot be too far away.

God showed Daniel what would happen in the future concerning the world and mankind and Daniel told God he did not understand which Daniel probably thought how can anybody understand it seeing people have a limited view of the world and how can they possibly know what the world is doing to understand these things,

God said do not worry about it for many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall increase,which means advanced travel and technology as we see today.

God told Daniel do not worry about it for when they get to that time that will be able to understand what I am saying because they will be able to see what the world is doing and know that they can come together because of advanced travel and technology.

Because the world can see what the world is doing and what is going on in the world and that people can travel to any part of the world and people can communicate with any person in the world,basically the world knows what is going on in the whole world,which means that they can also see that war is more likely to happen which is a threat to the world,and they can see the problems that are in the world,like war,starvation,diseases,population explosion,and other problems that make some in the world think that it is a good idea to cooperate with each other to stop the problems and get along,especially when there is advanced weapons like nuclear bombs that can wipe out a country.

The people that want a world that is all about man,like the 10 leaders,which there is others,will take advantage of this situation and hypen it up more to try to get the world to come together and cooperate with each other,which they might even create problems gong the controlled conflict brings about controlled change.

 

[BradC]

I think Revelation 20:4-5 should be read in conjunction with these passages, for scripture interprets scripture:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 6:4-5
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ephesians 2:5-6
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3:1-3
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Those who hear and believe the gospel pass from spiritual death to life (i.e. the spiritual, first resurrection), spiritually reign with Christ (Eph 2:6), and the second death, the lake of fire, have no power over them.

Also keep in mind that Revelation is highly symbolic.

Are you saying with your post that the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:5 is not a bodily resurrection that takes place, but rather a spiritual one or a resurrection that we can't be quite sure of as to what kind is being referred to? Are you unsure yourself because the scriptures you have mentioned would seem to point you in the direction of a spiritual one. Is that true? If the first is spiritual is the second also spiritual and not bodily?

 

[LT]

Are you saying with your post that the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:5 is not a bodily resurrection that takes place, but rather a spiritual one or a resurrection that we can't be quite sure of as to what kind is being referred to? Are you unsure yourself because the scriptures you have mentioned would seem to point you in the direction of a spiritual one. Is that true? If the first is spiritual is the second also spiritual and not bodily?

Following the logical path starfield laid out, she is saying that the 1st resurrection could be a spiritual resurrection, and the 2nd would be bodily at the Great White Throne.
I'm not sure I agree, but she did present her side very convincingly. I will look into this view a bit more.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

If this already been fulfilled, then the Battle of Armageddon has already taken place, and we are already in the millennial kingdom.
Does anyone think this is true?

I personally don't see the Tribulation as a seven year period, so I think the "mark of the beast" has happened and continues to be given out in a metaphorical sense. I see many people today who worship money and false religions, and I also see many who reject these. Asia, Africa, Asia and the Middle East all have massive persecution of believers. There are hundreds killed for their faith every day.
So from my interpretation, this verse is being fulfilled as we speak, but will not see completion until the Last Day comes.

Hi there LT, first keep in mind that the reign referenced in Rev. 20:4 is a literal, physical reign.

In the context of Revelation 20 we can see that:


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The events listed in Revelation 20:1-15 are definitely LITERAL. It is basically a description of the sequence of events that willl take place one after the other.


If you are not Dispensational, then you simply will not take the Bible literally. It is as simple as that. That is why you said you believe the "mark of the beast" has been given out already and continues to be given out in a metaphorical sense.


You have to take the Bible as a whole Literally LT. It's that simple. That's why Dispensational Bible Study is so important and crucial for any serious student of the Scripture.


As of now, we are NOT in the Millennial Kingdom. In the Millennial Kingdom, Jesus Christ will be physically present on this earth, and He will be ruling and reigning from Jerusalem (the Kingdom of Heaven). And right now, we know that Jesus Christ is not in Jerusalem. But He will be in the very near future. Right after the end of the time of Jacob's trouble, and immediately after His Second Coming and the Judgement of the Nations (Matthew 25:31-46).



Now are hundreds of Christians being persecuted and killed every day? Yes they are. But that does not mean that we are somehow in the time of Jacob's trouble. Because we are not. The time of Jacob's trobule is when God will pour out His wrath upon the whole earth. The Body of Christ will not be here for the time of Jacob's trouble. In fact, the Body of Christ has to be removed first before the antichrist (son of perdition) can be revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8)


I also noticed LT, that you said that from your interpretation that you see Rev. 20:4-5 being fulfilled now. When it is not. It has not been fulfilled yet. Also keep in mind that we are to let Scripture interpret Scripture:


13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (KJV)



9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. - Isaiah 28:9-13 (KJV)



19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. - 2 Peter 1:19-21 (KJV)

I also believe the 1000 years are a part of the "eternal state", so I reject the Dispensation view of a "millennial kingdom".

Again LT, the Millennial Kindom will be a physical, literal, Jewish, Messianic Earthly Kingdom where Jesus Christ will rule and reign physically from Jerusalem. Our Lord Jesus Christ is going to rule the Nations with a Rod of Iron in the Millennial Kingdom just as the Holy Bible says and teaches.


Eternity will take place for us after the Millennial Kingdom and the Great White Throne Judgment. Since during the 1,000 year Millennial Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, time will still be in effect.

 

[LT]

..... keep in mind that the reign referenced in Rev. 20:4 is a literal, physical reign........

If it takes you more than 1 view-able page to make your point, you are just flooding the chat.



I know your position well. It is called Dispensationalism. I have been forced to study it in depth because it is the official doctrine of my college.

I will not debate with you on this thread, because prophecy is not important enough, in my view, for me to take a stand on it. Talk to me about the program for salvation before the "Church Age", and I would love to challenge your ideas

By the way, I do believe the "Millennial Kingdom" will be literal and physical, because I believe the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem will be LITERAL and PHYSICAL. I believe that Christ will reign LITERALLY from Jerusalem, and that the land of Israel will prosper.... but unlike you, I don't believe that reign will ever end.

Your attitude makes me want to argue, but I have said my peace, and I leave you with a prayer:
May the peace of Christ be with you.

 

[nathan3]

Revelation 20 is Future. You can't make that fit until Christ steps foot back on this earth as King of kings and Lord of lords; over all the world. ( Revelation 17:14 , etc )

 

[vic1980]

Revelation 20 is Future. You can't make that fit until Christ steps foot back on this earth as King of kings and Lord of lords; over all the world. ( Revelation 17:14 , etc )

THIS I BELIVE ALSO.

GOD BLESS

 

[zone]

Following the logical path starfield laid out, she is saying that the 1st resurrection could be a spiritual resurrection, and the 2nd would be bodily at the Great White Throne.
I'm not sure I agree, but she did present her side very convincingly. I will look into this view a bit more.

of course that's what it is. its the new birth.
forget about trying to convince gappers.
they need 2 of everything....at least 1,000 years apart. though generally 2000 years is the preferred gap.

delusion sets in.
it's blinding.

 

[Graybeard]

There are 5 Interpretation views on the book Revelation.
1) Preterist Interpretation = prophetic events were fulfilled in the 1st century
2) Historical Interpretation = prophetic events have been fulfilled throughout history
3)Allegorical Interpretation = the stories are all allegories - a battle between good and evil
4) A-millennial Interpretation = Revelation is seven phases of church history
5) Futuristic Interpretation = chapters 4 to 22 are the time of the tribulation

I tend to lean toward No. 5
Chapter 1 = past
Chapter 2 & 3 = in Johns day when Revelation was written it was about the present time

 

[Isdaniel]

There are 5 Interpretation views on the book Revelation.
1) Preterist Interpretation = prophetic events were fulfilled in the 1st century
2) Historical Interpretation = prophetic events have been fulfilled throughout history
3)Allegorical Interpretation = the stories are all allegories - a battle between good and evil
4) A-millennial Interpretation = Revelation is seven phases of church history
5) Futuristic Interpretation = chapters 4 to 22 are the time of the tribulation

I tend to lean toward No. 5
Chapter 1 = past
Chapter 2 & 3 = in Johns day when Revelation was written it was about the present time

Revelation 1
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Are = present
thou has seen = past
hereafter = future

 

[Graybeard]

Revelation 1
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Are = present
thou has seen = past
hereafter = future

exactly...(you just got the order mixed up)

 

[Bookends]

NOTHING in Revelations has happened yet.

Simply your opinion.

 

[BradC]

There are specific things in the OP concerning Rev 20:4,5 that are being avoided, that are very plain and direct but avoided. The first and resurrections are just one part of what takes place in the plan of God. There is at least a half dozen other specifics that no one wants to address. Why is that? You have free course to say what you want. Are any of you going to be reasonable about these things or are you going to ignore them? They matter much and have a place in our understanding concerning the things of God that the Spirit has laid out. They are the mind of Christ and we are to let this mind be in us as it was in Christ Jesus (Phil 2:5).