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L
I think I am tempted to argue with you more because of your demeanor, and less on your subject matter.
I had made a valid statement at the begin of this thread that you neglected to address, even though I read through your article thoroughly, and gave you my assessment.
I do want to learn more about the book of Revelation, so I do ask that if you engage my posts you would do so in correction instead of accusation. I believe you have wisdom for us, so I pray that you will be more open with us instead of accusatory. Just because I resist what you have to say, doesn't mean I can't learn from it.
I had made a valid statement at the begin of this thread that you neglected to address, even though I read through your article thoroughly, and gave you my assessment.
I do want to learn more about the book of Revelation, so I do ask that if you engage my posts you would do so in correction instead of accusation. I believe you have wisdom for us, so I pray that you will be more open with us instead of accusatory. Just because I resist what you have to say, doesn't mean I can't learn from it.
L
Why is there no need for anything else?
Do you really believe that dispensational theology began in the 1830s with John Nelson Darby? All John Nelson Darby did was systematize Scriptures into dispensations. Dispensational theology didn't originate with him in the 1830s. It was only the method of literal interpretation of biblical prophecy which began with JND. The fallacy is that JND started a false doctrine called dispensationalism. Dispensational theology sees the distinction between Israel and the Church. If one does not make that distinction, the interpretation of biblical prophecy becomes confusing. When preterism teaches that all prophecies were fulfilled in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman armies of Titus, then people have to begin "spiritualizing" and "allegorizing" Scripture (especially prophetic Scriptures) to make their theology work into their scheme of things.
The sad view of the faith is to say that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. That view of the faith totally eliminates Israel from the prophetic plan of God and basically calls God a liar. That, my friend, is why that last statement was made at the end of that article.
Yes there are Jews....I am one. God knows their genealogies. The Orthodox,Ultra Orthodox and Chasidic Jews are really the main sects of Jews who follow the Talmud and the Torah. It's called Rabbinic Judaism. They are the ones you usually see praying fervently by the Western Wall. All prophecy was not fulfilled in 70AD. Israel is back in their land in unbelief....Ezekiel's prophecy of the "dry bones" is being fulfilled now. (Ezekiel 37).
About the "obsession" with this topic being a waste of time and a topic which doesn't advance the Gospel...let me ask you this question: Do you believe it is a waste of time to share the Gospel with the Jewish people? Why does sharing the Gospel with the Jewish people not advance the Gospel?
I'm sorry you feel that way....but honestly, when people who say they love the Lord Jesus Christ and at the same time come against the nation of Israel and the Jewish people (my brethren after the flesh), I get very upset.
Was your very first statement "The promises will be fulfilled in the New Earth and New Jerusalem. There is no need for anything else." your assessment of that entire article?
If you desire for me to be more open with you, then you (and your friends) should act in like manner...instead of calling me, and several of my friends, heretics for believing in the literal interpretation of biblical prophecy, which is dispensational theology.
Do you really believe that dispensational theology began in the 1830s with John Nelson Darby? All John Nelson Darby did was systematize Scriptures into dispensations. Dispensational theology didn't originate with him in the 1830s. It was only the method of literal interpretation of biblical prophecy which began with JND. The fallacy is that JND started a false doctrine called dispensationalism. Dispensational theology sees the distinction between Israel and the Church. If one does not make that distinction, the interpretation of biblical prophecy becomes confusing. When preterism teaches that all prophecies were fulfilled in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Roman armies of Titus, then people have to begin "spiritualizing" and "allegorizing" Scripture (especially prophetic Scriptures) to make their theology work into their scheme of things.
The sad view of the faith is to say that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD. That view of the faith totally eliminates Israel from the prophetic plan of God and basically calls God a liar. That, my friend, is why that last statement was made at the end of that article.
Yes there are Jews....I am one. God knows their genealogies. The Orthodox,Ultra Orthodox and Chasidic Jews are really the main sects of Jews who follow the Talmud and the Torah. It's called Rabbinic Judaism. They are the ones you usually see praying fervently by the Western Wall. All prophecy was not fulfilled in 70AD. Israel is back in their land in unbelief....Ezekiel's prophecy of the "dry bones" is being fulfilled now. (Ezekiel 37).
About the "obsession" with this topic being a waste of time and a topic which doesn't advance the Gospel...let me ask you this question: Do you believe it is a waste of time to share the Gospel with the Jewish people? Why does sharing the Gospel with the Jewish people not advance the Gospel?
I'm sorry you feel that way....but honestly, when people who say they love the Lord Jesus Christ and at the same time come against the nation of Israel and the Jewish people (my brethren after the flesh), I get very upset.
Was your very first statement "The promises will be fulfilled in the New Earth and New Jerusalem. There is no need for anything else." your assessment of that entire article?
If you desire for me to be more open with you, then you (and your friends) should act in like manner...instead of calling me, and several of my friends, heretics for believing in the literal interpretation of biblical prophecy, which is dispensational theology.
People...u are speaking about some theology from 19 century,reformed couple times...What are we speaking of here!?Where is Early Church here!?Where are Martyrs and Holy Fathers?They are eliminated??Where is perspective of billions of Christians who got teaching of Apostles in unchanged form?!
Silly talks...
Silly talks...
If you read all the prophecies that have been fulfilled, the scriptures telling of them never gave a literal description of just how it would be fulfilled. If you had been a Jew living under Roman rule before Christ came you never would have guessed how the Messiah would come. It even took the disciples awhile to catch on. It is the same with the second coming. We can see the prophecy that has been fulfilled. The Jewish biblical scholars told everyone just how scripture said it would be and they were, everyone of them, wrong.
If someone would have told me in 1945 that Jews would soon return to Jerusalem I wouldn't have believed them.
We know Christ will return as a judge, I think all the scholars telling us how it will be are whistling Dixie.
The feasts that God gave the Hebrews to celebrate always told of coming events. Three have happened on exactly the day of the feast that foretold it: Passover, a feast of redemption. Christ was crucified on this day. Feast of First Fruits, Christ rose on this day. Pentecost, or Feast of Weeks, the HS came to us this day.
The feasts telling of things yet to happen is Rosh Hashanah or Feast of Trumpets telling of Christ's return. Ten days later is the Day of Atonement, telling of the day Christians will be saved. Then the Feast of Tabernacles telling of the new earth of the future. These three feasts tell us a lot about what is coming but not how it will happen. We are told we do not know the time, but by checking the dates of these feasts we can know the season.
If someone would have told me in 1945 that Jews would soon return to Jerusalem I wouldn't have believed them.
We know Christ will return as a judge, I think all the scholars telling us how it will be are whistling Dixie.
The feasts that God gave the Hebrews to celebrate always told of coming events. Three have happened on exactly the day of the feast that foretold it: Passover, a feast of redemption. Christ was crucified on this day. Feast of First Fruits, Christ rose on this day. Pentecost, or Feast of Weeks, the HS came to us this day.
The feasts telling of things yet to happen is Rosh Hashanah or Feast of Trumpets telling of Christ's return. Ten days later is the Day of Atonement, telling of the day Christians will be saved. Then the Feast of Tabernacles telling of the new earth of the future. These three feasts tell us a lot about what is coming but not how it will happen. We are told we do not know the time, but by checking the dates of these feasts we can know the season.
Theodore Herzl seems to think there was a people that were removed from their land.
"We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country .... expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
-- Theodore Herzl (from Rafael Patai, Ed. The Complete Diaries of Theodore Herzl, Vol I).
what happened to all the land that was left behind ?
"We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs and we are building here a Hebrew, a Jewish state; instead of the Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You even do not know the names of those villages, and I do not blame you because these villages no longer exist. There is not a single Jewish settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab Village." * Moshe Dyan, March 19, 1969, speech at the Technion in Haifa, quoted in Ha'aretz, April 4, 1969.
What method have they found to be the best ?
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum."
Looks like force to me.
"We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country .... expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."
-- Theodore Herzl (from Rafael Patai, Ed. The Complete Diaries of Theodore Herzl, Vol I).
what happened to all the land that was left behind ?
"We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs and we are building here a Hebrew, a Jewish state; instead of the Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You even do not know the names of those villages, and I do not blame you because these villages no longer exist. There is not a single Jewish settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab Village." * Moshe Dyan, March 19, 1969, speech at the Technion in Haifa, quoted in Ha'aretz, April 4, 1969.
What method have they found to be the best ?
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum."
Looks like force to me.
Bible have nothing with Jews after Christ.They condemned Christ and crucified Him and since that time,Jews are separated from God because they didn't recognized Him as Messiah.Here we finish all our talk about present Israel and Jews.Those are heretics who still live in time of Old Testament.They have nothing with Christians.
I agree!
Luke 10:25-28 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
[video=youtube;hDh1Vr7qajA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDh1Vr7qajA[/video]
Luke 10:25-28 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
[video=youtube;hDh1Vr7qajA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDh1Vr7qajA[/video]
I realize there are greater things to talk about on this forum, but I think it's good to be informed. So I'd like to say that the Lost Tribes concept is a myth. I had an Israeli professor from one of my university classes who associated himself with the tribe of Levi. Also, Judah and Benjamin were not completely assimilated into Assyrian conquered populations. Those that were assimilated still have heritage from the other tribes, practice a religion similar to Judaism and are called Samaritans. The Temple Institute is training Jews with heritage from the tribe of Levi. So while secularism and globalism have both made it difficult to define who has what background, physical distinctions remain. I don't feel those distinctions will be further blurred in the future but rather clarified because of the discovery of genetics. People don't need to know their ancestry per se to trace their genetic lineage any more.
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Is what's meant here that salvation comes from obeying the laws of the Law or salvation comes through obeying the Law? If we are to adopt the traditional Christian view of the Old Testament (that logically agrees with both the Old and New Testaments) then it would be salvation coming through obedience to the Law (i.e. the Law lead us to Christ).
B
This is not intended to be a contentious question. Tell me what you think of Rom 4:13-17 in light of what is being said by Paul. Who are those being referred to in the B part of verse 16?
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to ALL THE SEED; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to ALL THE SEED; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
