Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

presidente · Sep 2, 2013

zone said:

I never said God promised us luxury cars.

The Bible says I've never seen the righteous forsaken or his children begging for bread. And to seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you. Food is one of the things. There are also times for fasting, though. And there are no specific promises about Outback Steakhouse or Chuck's.

Not everyone has been beaten that much, but the people I can think of who may have the apostolic gift aren't driving around in golden Mercedes and have to believe God as they scrape up funds for different things.

It's pretty clear you don't. You are beating a strawman again. I've never said apostles are rich or that Christians are guaranteed luxury. I don't think that way either.

Amen!

Do you believe I Corinthians is genuinely inspired by God or not? If it is, then the statement has already been proved. The OP contained the verses that proved it. Paul wrote to the Corinthians and all who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the context of what to do in church meetings. He COMMANDED regarding psalms, teaching, tongues, revelation, and interpretation, let all things be done unto edifying. That is a command. The passage also gives commands regarding speaking in tongues. It also commands to let the prophets speak two or three.

Then, Paul indicates the practices are universal when he asks the Corinthians if they were the only ones who heard the word or were the only ones to which it came. Then he specifies that the commandments in the passage are commandments of the Lord. Then he tells them if anyone is ignorant, let them be ignorant, showing that this is a section started with the comment in chapter 12, now concerning spiritual gifts, I do not want you to be ignorant.

Then he COMMANDS believers to covet to prophesy, and to forbid not to speak with tongues.

Neither could the Corinthians. Paul wrote, 'no man understandeth him'. Hence the need for an interpreter. Do you it was okay for the Corinthian church to disobey the Lord because they did not understand what was said in tongues?

A lot of people who speak in tongues and interpret don't feel it is appropriate to turn it into some kind of experiment. And they know better to post such things for people like yourself. If you could verify the language, you'd probably say, "How do we know he did not know Lithuanian already?" or whatever language.

God doesn't promise us gold Mercedes. And He doesn't promise us that someone will be able to understand speaking in tongues in their own language. If no one does, that is no excuse to disobey the commandments of the Lord for speaking in tongues and prophesying in church.

And so do you think if the person does not jump through the hoops you decide on, you are free to disobey the commandments of the Lord?

Paul doesn't say anything about the interpreter lying. In chapter 12, he lists divers tongues and interpretation of tongues among manifestations of the Spirit. In chapter 14, he gives instructions about allowing these gifts to operate. If you believe chapter 12, then doing chapter 14 isn't that big of a leap. If you don't believe chapter 12, then it's to do chapter 14. But unbelief doesn't justify disobedience.

By the way, if you confess your faith in Jesus Christ, how do we know you aren't lying? If we are supposed to test everything, how do we test and see that you aren't lying?

When Paul baptized a new convert, say Lyddia or the Philippian jailer, do you think he refused to baptized such people because they might be lying when they confessed their faith?

I gave a lengthy answer. The attitude toward spiritual gifts is not the attitude I Corinthians 12-14 indicates that we should have. If believers in Jesus ask God for spiritual gifts, we shouldn't be paranoid that we were given bad things when they start to operate. If a church is obedient and allows gifts to operate and someone comes in and tries to con the church or Satan stirs up trouble, the Lord can give people gifts of discernment and the leadership and congregation can confront error. Fear of trouble happening is no excuse for disobedience.

unclefester · Sep 2, 2013

presidente said:

If you cannot see and do not understand that it was earthly languages being spoken, what is left to say ?

Acts 2:6-11

[SUP]6 [/SUP]When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.[SUP]7 [/SUP]Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?[SUP]9 [/SUP]Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia,Pontus and Asia,[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome [SUP]11 [/SUP](both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

SarahM777 · Sep 2, 2013

unclefester said:

Umm But one thing that should be asked and is never answered is if the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth and God is not of confusion,why then would the Holy Spirit have someone utter tongues knowing there is no interpreter? Shouldn't the Holy Spirit be telling them to keep silent in the first place? Does it make sense that the Holy Spirit would NOT KNOW that there is no interpreter? Isn't that a bit of a conundrum? Wouldn't that then mean the Holy Spirit does not know all things and the hearts of men?

Stephen63 · Sep 2, 2013

SarahM777 said:

UMMM One other thing in this Stephen which is troubling since you claim to have the real,you yourself know there are lots of fakes,you have even said so. First you have stated a lie,what has been said is what is being seen in these things is that they do not appear to be from the Lord. Again you never have shown the real to be able to compare the two. Have most in here have ever seen the real? If you do have the real fight should be against the false manifistations because it's a mockery of the things of God. No doubt a number of the people who pat you on the back are involved with these people. You have a few that believe that guys like Benny Hinn,Perry Stone and others are men of God yet those same "prophets are into necromancy",they get some of their visions and some of their information from dead people and what does the Bible say about that? Yet you who suppose to be concerned about the people who you shepherd and you who are suppose to expose the lies will very rarely say one word against the falseness. Are you concerned about those people or not? From appearances it does not seem so. It seems you would rather fight against those who do not agree with you on whether or the gifts have ceased or not.

From appearances once you find out they do not agree with you,you lose all patience with them and you get short with them,it doesn't take long with you either. Which again a severe lack of patience is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit,which should be a warning sign that something is not right.

At one point I was not cessationist,I became one because of all the garbage,to this day I can not understand how it was that the two churches that "were Bible believing Holy Ghost baptized" churches showed so little of the fruits of the spirit.
The first was a large church and when I did open up about some other struggles I was having I was left alone,and shunned. Same thing happened at the second church,yet the church I am going to now,has shown more fruits of the spirit. Why is that Stephen? Should it be that way? Or should churches that say they are baptized in the Holy Spirit actually show the fruits of the Holy Spirit? If the church is not showing they have the fruits of the Holy Spirit do they really have the Holy Spirit? Am I mistaken or is that a real problem?

Where in all of this is the love,joy,peace,patience,goodness,kindness,gentleness,faithfulness and SELF CONTROL?

I'll tell you like you tell me...... Since you cannot confirm your story, I have no choice but to not believe it. This the way you do me, so this is the way I'll do you. I don't believe your story. And since nobody else can confirm it, there you go.

I have said it before, and I will say it again...... And again........ And again....... I do not believe in these televangelists. I preach against them in my church. But I know regardless of what I say, it would either be twisted back against me just like your pack is doing against presidente.

Stephen63 · Sep 2, 2013

@ presidente: you're wasting your time trying to prove anything to these people. They are not here to consider, they are here to corrupt your message and to eventually make you look a fool. Don't feel bad, because they do it to everybody who believes like we do. If you notice, they only do this when you're talking about the gifts of the Spirit. They will find every fake possible to prove their point. They will find every Internet site that speaks against you, regardless of what denomination they are. They sow seeds of disinformation among the church, which is false doctrine. They had been told and told and told that these gifts can only operate as the Spirit gives utterance. They know we cannot illustrate for them because God will not put on a show just to please them. They know that. They also know if somebody tries, they will nail them to the wall for being a false prophet, knowing that they can't do that. It's all a set up. Even now, they're waiting for you to slip up some way just like the scribes and pharisees did Jesus. If you do, they will post a 8 to 10 paragraphs of how wrong you are. That's what they do. They're not here for anything else.

notuptome · Sep 2, 2013

presidente said:

It matters not how many times you see what God has said you have already made up your mind on what you want. Faith that comes from God is received through the word of God. You cannot appropriate gifts without sound doctrine.

Paul is not speaking of charismatic gifts but knowledge and edification through hearing the word of God. Knowledge received through the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of believers. Knowledge and edification not available to the natural man because the Holy Spirit is not present in his life. Quit taking short cuts that cannot profit you and study Gods word for Spiritual growth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

SarahM777 · Sep 2, 2013

Stephen63 said:

Here lies the problem you say you have the Holy Spirit but what you have shown is anger,bitterness,vindictiveness, hostility,impatience,and mild paranoia. Those are the fruits you show. Are those the fruits of the Spirit or are those things carnal and of the flesh? Please tell me where in this is where someone is to trust what you say and where in the center of any of this are the fruits of the Holy Spirit which are LOVE,JOY,PEACE,PATIENCE,GOODNESS ,KINDNESS,GENTLENESS, FAITHFULNESS,and SELF CONTROL?

How can one honestly say they have the Holy Spirit when these are the fruits that come across in your posts? Those are WARNINGS SIGNS that something is NOT right. Do you even address this in yourself?

zone · Sep 2, 2013

presidente said:

I never said God promised us luxury cars.

The Bible says I've never seen the righteous forsaken or his children begging for bread. And to seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you. Food is one of the things. There are also times for fasting, though. And there are no specific promises about Outback Steakhouse or Chuck's.

Not everyone has been beaten that much, but the people I can think of who may have the apostolic gift aren't driving around in golden Mercedes and have to believe God as they scrape up funds for different things.

It's pretty clear you don't. You are beating a strawman again. I've never said apostles are rich or that Christians are guaranteed luxury. I don't think that way either.

Amen!

[/B]Do you believe I Corinthians is genuinely inspired by God or not? If it is, then the statement has already been proved. The OP contained the verses that proved it. Paul wrote to the Corinthians and all who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the context of what to do in church meetings. He COMMANDED regarding psalms, teaching, tongues, revelation, and interpretation, let all things be done unto edifying. That is a command. The passage also gives commands regarding speaking in tongues. It also commands to let the prophets speak two or three.

Then, Paul indicates the practices are universal when he asks the Corinthians if they were the only ones who heard the word or were the only ones to which it came. Then he specifies that the commandments in the passage are commandments of the Lord. Then he tells them if anyone is ignorant, let them be ignorant, showing that this is a section started with the comment in chapter 12, now concerning spiritual gifts, I do not want you to be ignorant.

Then he COMMANDS believers to covet to prophesy, and to forbid not to speak with tongues.

Neither could the Corinthians. Paul wrote, 'no man understandeth him'. Hence the need for an interpreter. Do you it was okay for the Corinthian church to disobey the Lord because they did not understand what was said in tongues?

A lot of people who speak in tongues and interpret don't feel it is appropriate to turn it into some kind of experiment. And they know better to post such things for people like yourself. If you could verify the language, you'd probably say, "How do we know he did not know Lithuanian already?" or whatever language.

God doesn't promise us gold Mercedes. And He doesn't promise us that someone will be able to understand speaking in tongues in their own language. If no one does, that is no excuse to disobey the commandments of the Lord for speaking in tongues and prophesying in church.

And so do you think if the person does not jump through the hoops you decide on, you are free to disobey the commandments of the Lord?

Paul doesn't say anything about the interpreter lying. In chapter 12, he lists divers tongues and interpretation of tongues among manifestations of the Spirit. In chapter 14, he gives instructions about allowing these gifts to operate. If you believe chapter 12, then doing chapter 14 isn't that big of a leap. If you don't believe chapter 12, then it's to do chapter 14. But unbelief doesn't justify disobedience.

By the way, if you confess your faith in Jesus Christ, how do we know you aren't lying? If we are supposed to test everything, how do we test and see that you aren't lying?

When Paul baptized a new convert, say Lyddia or the Philippian jailer, do you think he refused to baptized such people because they might be lying when they confessed their faith?

I gave a lengthy answer. The attitude toward spiritual gifts is not the attitude I Corinthians 12-14 indicates that we should have. If believers in Jesus ask God for spiritual gifts, we shouldn't be paranoid that we were given bad things when they start to operate. If a church is obedient and allows gifts to operate and someone comes in and tries to con the church or Satan stirs up trouble, the Lord can give people gifts of discernment and the leadership and congregation can confront error. Fear of trouble happening is no excuse for disobedience.

"By the way, if you confess your faith in Jesus Christ, how do we know you aren't lying? If we are supposed to test everything, how do we test and see that you aren't lying?"

uh - because you can UNDERSTAND what i am professing and check it against the Gospel.
you can UNDERSTAND what i am saying about Jesus and the WORD.

presidente said:

can we just proceed from here, please?

- have you ever had someone come in and con your church? if so, what was it they did that tipped you off?

- what error was it that came in - was it counterfeit gifts? i.e: counterfeit/lying tongues?

- is there such a thing as people faking tongues? have you ever encountered it?

the very simple question is: HOW DO YOU KNOW?

please just answer this. it's really really simple. my UNBELIEF (in glossolalia) should be a reason for you to help me get it - since tongues are a SIGN for unbelievers

SarahM777 · Sep 2, 2013

Stephen63 said:

And again go back and read what I said, I said that there are people in CC that believe guys like Benny Hinn and Perry Stone are men of God and they pat you on the back BUT YOU DON"T SAY MUCH OF ANYTHING TO THEM ABOUT THESE GUYS. It gives the appearance that you are in agreement with them. I have no idea what you say in your church. But by appearances in here I can't say that you actually do because you say hardly anything about here.

Stephen63 · Sep 2, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Ummmmmm........ The fruit of the Spirit is to be found in every believer, regardless of being spirit filled or not.

Making your claims about my behavior doesn't verify anything. There is no anger, bitterness, vindictiveness, hostility, impatience, or paranoia. That is a claim made by you and is nothing but a bare-faced lie.

And since you want talk about fruits of the Spirit, where's yours? When you get the beam out of your eye, you can then see how to get the splinters out of others' eyes.

Stephen63 · Sep 2, 2013

SarahM777 said:

I have spoken out about them. But I don't rub it in like you and your pack does. I make my statement and I let it go. You make your statements over and over and over and over, each time saying something negative about the individual who posted. You see, your constant remarks against people make it seem very easily that you're just against them because they quote something of the bible about the Spirit of God. And that's what I believe, because that's mostly what I see you do.

Here you go one more time, stating that I believe something that I absolutely don't, and have made it clear that I don't. Which means you're telling lies on me again.

As usual, when you can't condemn the beliefs of an individual, you will condemn the individual.

unclefester · Sep 2, 2013

To any modern day tongue speaking advocate that feels like answering.

Question #1 : Were the miraculous tongues spoken at pentecost earthly languages ?

Question #2 : What language did God's messengers (angels) ever speak but the language of the people/person to whom God's message was given ?

Question #3 : If there are in fact "tongues of angels", is it a different language/dialect than God's ?

Glen · Sep 2, 2013

There are four (4) basic types of tongues: 1) the personal prayer language every person filled with the Spirit in a separate experience after salvation receives; 2) tongues for general speaking forth within the service in the colloquial language; 3) tongues for general speaking forth within the service in a non-human tongue (tongue of angels); 4) singing in the Spirit, and other forms/applications as the Spirit wills.

Scripture's requirement that an interpreter be employed refers to the 2nd and 3rd applications. The first and fourth applications are personal and/or corporate, for employment within the general worship service, as employed by the general congregation together, and neither require nor enable interpreters - nor would they be appropriate.

Regarding the suggestion that tongues must be (always?) allowed in church, Scripture says, "Let everything be done decently and in order." As a pastor, I always encourage my congregations to employ tongues, and, in a worship service usually spend my time almost exclusively quietly worshipping and singing in tongues (applications 1 and 4). But applications 2 and 3 would be thoroughly inappropriate outside of certain times in the service, at which times they would be disruptive and rebuked. If God has given a word of prophecy or tongues for corporate blessing to one in the congregation the speaker is to give the word when and if there is appropriate opportunity; his senses are not overtaken and hijacked by the Holy Spirit in such a way that he cannot control himself ("The Spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets.")

There is a second experience after salvation, for every believer. This is called being, "Filled with the Spirit." Some call it being baptized with the Spirit, but Scripture tells us that is salvation. When filled with the Spirit in this second experience/blessing, the (every believer who has received this second experience/blessing) receives their own personal tongues prayer language, a, "tongue of angels," with which to worship and establish closer walk with God.

This experience is only really understood by those who have received it. For a person who has not received this second experience/blessing to purport to accurately expound on the experience (which IS for today, just as much as in the New Testament) would be like a non-believer's purporting to understand and expound on the experience of salvation. Neither salvation nor the Holy Spirit Infilling is anywhere in Scripture delineated in point form; both experiences are found in Scripture and understood only by those who have experienced them.

For more on the Infilling of the Holy Spirit, see ALELUJAH.COM - What Next? - Be Filled With the Spirit at my my website, www.Alelujah.com
For more on tongues, see Tongues Directory at my website, www.Micaiah.com

SarahM777 · Sep 2, 2013

Stephen63 said:

UMM Would you really want to say that when all someone has to do is go through your posts? It can be verified Stephen.

unclefester · Sep 2, 2013

Glen said:

Where would you categorize the following ?

Acts 2:6-11

[SUP]6 [/SUP]When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.[SUP]7 [/SUP]Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?[SUP]9 [/SUP]Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia,Pontus and Asia,[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome [SUP]11 [/SUP](both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

zone · Sep 2, 2013

[video=youtube;9d5lDeMJjx4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d5lDeMJjx4[/video]

John MacArthur - "Speaking in Tongues" (Charismatic Chaos series, 1991)

11 minutes.

"...ecstatic experience, like drug addiction, requires larger and larger doses to satisfy....the high sought becomes more elusive....eventually there is a crisis, and a decision is made...he will sit on the back seats and be a spectator, fake it, or go on in the hope that everything will be as it was..."

zone · Sep 2, 2013

no, the beliefs/practices are easily bebunked, and so condemned - completely fraudulent, and everybody knows it, including ppl in the movement. some are honest with themselves and others sooner or later...some are not.

what ever that means about the individual's spiritual condition....well....that can be seen in the uber-defensiveness and hostility when that paradigm is challenged. it's challenged (you'll never believe this) - for your own sake.

the individual needs to make their own decision about what they will do.
some come out of it, others do not.
i don't know why.

Stephen63 · Sep 2, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Yup. And while they're at it, they can read all of yours & your pack, because they will be on the same threads.They can read to their heart's desire, cause the more they read about me, much more they will read about you guys. So have at it.

zone · Sep 2, 2013

Glen said:

this is just so wrong on every level.

do all speak in tongues? (any "type")? Paul said NO.

"filled with the Spirit in a separate experience after salvation receives"??

..........................

THE PURPOSE OF TONGUES:

“[This sign] shall follow them that believeth…they shall speak with new tongues…” (Mark 16:17) “[W]ith stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people.” (Isaiah 28:11) The reasons that God gave the gift of tongues were twofold. They were for a sign and they were a revelation gift given to edify the early church:

Tongues Were For A Sign:

1. To “this people,” the Jews and especially the Jews in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost (Isaiah 28:11, 14; Acts 2:1-11). Many Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel were scattered abroad when they were defeated and led captive hundreds of ears before the Day of Pentecost by the Assyians and Babylonians (James 1:1). They had been scattered all over the World (I Peter 1:1; Acts 2:9-11), but on the Day of Pentecost many of these disbursed Jews “out of every nation under heaven” had come to worship when they heard a bunch of uneducated “stammering” Galilaeans speaking “the wonderful works of God” in their own language (Acts 2:5-8, 11; Isaiah 28:11). The results of these Jews hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ “in his own language” was that ‘about three thousand souls” were saved and baptized that very day (Acts 2:6, 41).

2. To the believers “of the circumcision” (Jews) that Gentiles could be saved also (Isaiah 28:11; Acts 10:44-48). When the Apostle Peter preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Cornelius, the Roman Centurion of the Italian Band, and his household and friends (Acts 10:1, 24) “the Holy ghost fell on [these Gentiles as he did on the Jews on the Day of Pentecost]…And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter…For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.” (Acts 10:44-46, cf. 11:1-18).

3. To the lost in general. “[T]ongues are a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not…” (I Corinthians 14:22).

4. To authenticate Apostolic authority. Tongues was one of the five “signs of an apostle” (II Corinthians 12:12). Every recorded instance of tongues was either preformed by, or witnessed by an apostle, and there are only three cases recorded (Acts 2:1-4, 10:45-46, 19:1-7). After the Lord Jesus Christ’s resurrection he said, “these signs shall follow them that believe…” (Mark 16:17). In this verse “[t]he verb ‘believe’ in the Greek is in the aorist tense…which refers to those who did believe, not those who would believe at that time or in the future.” (Spiros Zodhiates) In this verse the Lord is speaking to “the eleven” apostles (Mark 16:14) who should have already believed. There were five signs that followed the believing apostles. They were: 1) they cast out devils (Acts 5:16, 16:16-18, 19:11-12), 2) they spake with new tongues (Acts 2:3-4), 3) they took up serpents (Acts 28:1-6), 4) they could not be hurt by drinking poison (tradition says that an attempt to poison John failed), 5) they laid hands on the sick and they recovered (Acts 3:1-11, 5:12-16, 14:8-11, 28:8-9). These, to be sure, were “the signs of an apostle” (II Corinthians 12:12; Mark 16:17-18). “And [the apostles] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs following.” (Mark 16:20) The Lord confirmed the authority of the apostles and their companions to write the inspired written Word of God with these five signs. It is likely that some of the apostles’ associates, like Mark, Luke, Barnabas, Philip, and others, also displayed some of the sign gifts which authenticated their temporary revelation gifts.

......................

1. The Sign Gifts (Mark 16:17-18): These served two purposes: 1) they got peoples attention so that they could hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have an opportunity to be saved, and 2) they served to authenticate the apostle or prophet’s authority and message: “[The apostles] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the Word with signs following. Amen.” (Mark 16:20) "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" (Hebrews 2:3-4; cf. Acts 1:21-26) When the Word of God was completed "by them that heard [Christ]," both the sign gifts and the office of an apostle of Jesus Christ were abolished. "... [W]hether there be tongues, they shall cease ..." (See Appendix)

2. The Revelation Gifts (Romans 12:6; I Corinthians 12:8, 10): Revelation gifts served one purposes: they dispensed spiritual knowledge and prophecy until the Word of God was completed by the apostles and prophets. Knowledge of God, creation, Heaven, Hell, salvation, etc., and the prophetic predictions of the future rapture, tribulation, millennium, judgement, eternity, etc. could never have been known except God revealed these truths through the revelation gifts which He used in writing His Holy Word. God “put away” the revelation gifts of "the Word of knowledge" (I Corinthians 12:8), "prophecy" (I Corinthians 12:10), and tongues when He completed His Bible (The words "put away” in I Corinthians 13:11 comes from the same Greek word which is translated “shall fail,” “shall vanish away,” and “shall be done away” in I Corinthians 13:8, 10). Now that we have "that which is Perfect," the complete and infallible Word of God, the Revelation Gifts are no longer needed. (See Appendix)

- John Henry - New Testament Tongues Versus The Modern Tongues Movement, 1997

Abiding · Sep 2, 2013

Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

Senior Member

unclefester

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

unclefester

Guest

Banned

Banned

unclefester

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Abiding

Guest