Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

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Jan 31, 2021
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...fluid/secretkions are is different
Nonsense. Even today we speak of a "woman's water has broken".

Study the following;
John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​
You need to study this verse. Begin at v.3 where Jesus tells a man already born physically that he needs to be born again. So poor ol' confused Nic expresses his understanding of what Jesus said as being born TWICE physically, by going back into the mother's womb.​
So Jesus had to tell him plainly that to enter the kingdom, one had to be born physically and spiritually. Nic had been already born once, physically. And Jesus told him he needed to be born AGAIN, meaning spiritually. His answer in v.5 is clearly about the 2 births being physical and spiritual.​
But the "baptists" among us who insist it means water baptism are all wet, and don't like their doctrine to be refuted.​
 
May 22, 2020
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Nonsense. Even today we speak of a "woman's water has broken".

You need to study this verse. Begin at v.3 where Jesus tells a man already born physically that he needs to be born again. So poor ol' confused Nic expresses his understanding of what Jesus said as being born TWICE physically, by going back into the mother's womb.​
So Jesus had to tell him plainly that to enter the kingdom, one had to be born physically and spiritually. Nic had been already born once, physically. And Jesus told him he needed to be born AGAIN, meaning spiritually. His answer in v.5 is clearly about the 2 births being physical and spiritual.​
But the "baptists" among us who insist it means water baptism are all wet, and don't like their doctrine to be refuted.​

I don't care what..."you speak of"...what does the Bible says. What does science say.

Your use of street terms is notable. LOL

Your new age Obstinance approach to God;s word gets you in trouble again.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I don't care what..."you speak of"...what does the Bible says. What does science say.
What is clear is that you don't care about the issue. There was NO idea of science in Jesus' day. And even today, even though you just love to put your silly red X on my post where I pointed out that people say "when a woman's WATER broke" in reference to the birth process. So you don't have any room for your denial of science.

Your use of street terms is notable. LOL

Your new age Obstinance approach to God;s word gets you in trouble again.
What a denier of truth. And obvious truth at that.

John 3:3-5 clearly indicates that "water" was a reference to Nic's FIRST birth, which was physical. And he needed a SECOND birth, or to be born AGAIN.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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John 3:3-5 clearly indicates that "water" was a reference to Nic's FIRST birth, which was physical. And he needed a SECOND birth, or to be born AGAIN.
I don't know @FreeGrace2 .... I'm not so sure the "water" was a reference to Nic's FIRST birth which was physical...:unsure:

Look at when Jesus Christ was Water Baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was already physically born through Mary but, when He was water baptized, the Holy Spirit descending on Him in bodily form like a dove... It's Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism.... Jesus Christ was about to enter His ministry.

The Father's Voice was heard saying, "This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased."

The temptations/testing in the wilderness by Satan that followed kept testing if Jesus was the Son of God....

As a baby, Jesus Christ was born physically as the Son of God but, possibly at the Jordan River Jesus Christ was born spiritually as the Son of God by water and Spirit....:unsure:
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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I don't know @FreeGrace2 .... I'm not so sure the "water" was a reference to Nic's FIRST birth which was physical...:unsure:

Look at when Jesus Christ was Water Baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was already physically born through Mary but, when He was water baptized, the Holy Spirit descending on Him in bodily form like a dove... It's Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism.... Jesus Christ was about to enter His ministry.

The Father's Voice was heard saying, "This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased."

The temptations/testing in the wilderness by Satan that followed kept testing if Jesus was the Son of God....

As a baby, Jesus Christ was born physically as the Son of God but, possibly at the Jordan River Jesus Christ was born spiritually as the Son of God by water and Spirit....:unsure:
I'm really seeing that being SAVED and being BORN AGAIN are two different events in a Believers' life.

SAVED by believing in Jesus Christ by faith in His Blood and Body. His Works save us, NOT ours.

Next step is to be BORN AGAIN with Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism - BOTH water and Spirit.
 
May 22, 2020
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I don't know @FreeGrace2 .... I'm not so sure the "water" was a reference to Nic's FIRST birth which was physical...:unsure:

Look at when Jesus Christ was Water Baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was already physically born through Mary but, when He was water baptized, the Holy Spirit descending on Him in bodily form like a dove... It's Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism.... Jesus Christ was about to enter His ministry.

The Father's Voice was heard saying, "This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased."

The temptations/testing in the wilderness by Satan that followed kept testing if Jesus was the Son of God....

As a baby, Jesus Christ was born physically as the Son of God but, possibly at the Jordan River Jesus Christ was born spiritually as the Son of God by water and Spirit....:unsure:

WOW...I wish I could retain you to write my summaries. Nice job.

Praise God.
 
May 22, 2020
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timed out....

#726 cont'd...

.....with your approval I would like to ad the Christ/dove point to the baptism required list......with credit to author if desired?
Thanks.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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Scripture says othewise. It would be wise to believe Scripture.

Acts 20:21 -
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

The word "faith" is a noun, not a verb. So the action (verb) of baptism isn't found in the word "faith".
"You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did." James 2:20-21
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
John 3:3-5 clearly indicates that "water" was a reference to Nic's FIRST birth, which was physical. And he needed a SECOND birth, or to be born AGAIN.
I don't know @FreeGrace2 .... I'm not so sure the "water" was a reference to Nic's FIRST birth which was physical...:unsure:

Nic's perspective WAS physical birth, from what he said. So Jesus responded in lieu of his perspective.


Nic thought he had to enter his mother's womb AGAIN. But no, Jesus was speaking of spiritual birth.

So v.5 distinguishes between the physical and spiritual.

I don't know how else to take it. And there was no mention of water baptism, so why would Jesus insert that? The church hadn't even formed yet, so "Christian baptism" wasn't even a thing. And Jesus wasn't referring to his cousin John's baptism either.

Look at when Jesus Christ was Water Baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus was already physically born through Mary but, when He was water baptized, the Holy Spirit descending on Him in bodily form like a dove... It's Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism.... Jesus Christ was about to enter His ministry.
Jesus' baptism has NOTHING to do with "Christian baptism", which all believers are commanded to do.


The Father's Voice was heard saying, "This is My Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Of course He would be pleased. Jesus was identifying with (baptism) His Father's plan for Him.


The temptations/testing in the wilderness by Satan that followed kept testing if Jesus was the Son of God....
No, it is
clear from the text that Satan fully knew who Jesus was. In fact, when Jesus encountered demon possessed people, THEY knew who He was as well.

Satan was trying to tempt Jesus to trip Him up.

As a baby, Jesus Christ was born physically as the Son of God but, possibly at the Jordan River Jesus Christ was born spiritually as the Son of God by water and Spirit....:unsure:
There is no biblical support for that idea. Jesus never needed to be spiritually born again.

Neither His perfect body nor His soul or spirit needed it.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I'm really seeing that being SAVED and being BORN AGAIN are two different events in a Believers' life.

I explained that they occur at the same time, from Eph 2:5. Can you have one without the other? No.


SAVED by believing in Jesus Christ by faith in His Blood and Body. His Works save us, NOT ours.
Agreed! (y)


Next step is to be BORN AGAIN with Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism - BOTH water and Spirit.
I totally reject that. 1 Pet 3:21 says plainly that water baptism symbolizes the baptism that does save us. That baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

There is no link between water baptism, which is a ritual and wet, with the Holy Spirit baptism, which is a REAL identification, and is dry.

It seems not too many people understand the difference.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
Scripture says othewise. It would be wise to believe Scripture.

Acts 20:21 -
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

The word "faith" is a noun, not a verb. So the action (verb) of baptism isn't found in the word "faith".
"You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]?
Wow. What a leap! No connection between James' teaching and what Paul said. I proved by Paul's words that he did NOT believe that water baptism saved anyone. All it takes is eyes and ears that are OPEN.

21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did." James 2:20-21
Pray tell, how does this connect to the claim that water baptism is required for salvation?
 
May 22, 2020
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I stand corrected. I do think that
1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV
is speaking of water baptism.

I think he is trying to make them see that water baptism isn't the path to salvation, but the Gospel IS.

For clarity......repentance and water baptism is required for sin cleansing. Both required before one is..."born again"...and is required by scriptures.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
The 2 verses I quoted prove otherwise. Paul's sole interest was in preaching the gospel RATHER THAN baptizing anyone.

Paul made a clear point that he wasn't sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

No, the point is that Paul DID a few baptisms but he NEVER preached it.

I guess you weren't interested in the verses I shared.

Paul WASN'T sent to baptize, but he WAS sent to preach the gospel.

If water baptism was imbedded in "gospel" the verses would be senseless.
Faith involves belief and action. James 2:20-22

Paul's message to Lydia, the first Gentile European, and her family included the need to be baptized in water. (Acts 16:9-16)
Paul's message to the Ephesus disciples included the need to be water baptized in the name of the Lord as well. (Acts 19:1-6)
Paul's message to the jailer and his household included the need to be water baptized. (Acts 16:33)

Paul did preach baptism. In addition, he explained what actually occurs in the spiritual realm when people are baptized into Christ. (Romans 6:3-6)

Mark 1:1-5 makes the point that the gospel includes the need to be water baptized.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
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BORN AGAIN, That's not what the Bible says.

The Bible says born of water, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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FreeGrace2 said:
Scripture says othewise. It would be wise to believe Scripture.

Acts 20:21 -
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

The word "faith" is a noun, not a verb. So the action (verb) of baptism isn't found in the word "faith".

Wow. What a leap! No connection between James' teaching and what Paul said. I proved by Paul's words that he did NOT believe that water baptism saved anyone. All it takes is eyes and ears that are OPEN.


Pray tell, how does this connect to the claim that water baptism is required for salvation?
Those who believed in Jesus' sacrifice were told to follow specific instructions. They believed the message as seen by their actions. Verses 40 and 41 indicate their obedience played a part in their salvation.

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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We are born of water from the womb.

1Peter 3 isn't telling us baptism saves.
No need to advise people they must be born in order to be born again. However, water baptism and being filled with the Holy Spirit is recorded indicating both are required in order to receive one's spiritual rebirth.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Faith involves belief and action. James 2:20-22
No, faith OUGHT to involve action. That was James' point.

Listen closely to James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

I will point out that I moved the second quote mark from after the first "deeds" to after the second "deeds". I did this because the verse makes NO SENSE where all the translations place that second quote mark.

The "someone" actually says the whole verse: you have faith; I have deeds. Show me (the someone) your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith BY MY DEEDS.

iow, the "someone" begins by noting he has deeds. But the next sentence shows that he says that he can "show you" his faith BY HIS DEEDS.

This "someone" is addressing another who "has faith". So the "someone" is challenging the other person to show him his faith without any deeds.

The point is; a believer cannot show their faith apart from their deeds.

And that was the example James gave in v.15,16.
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

iow, it isn't any good. Words don't meet needs. Actions do.

Paul's message to Lydia, the first Gentile European, and her family included the need to be baptized in water. (Acts 16:9-16)
No, read the text:

14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.
15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.

There is NOTHING about "the NEED to be baptized". She simply WAS baptized. You are misreading the text.

Paul's message to the Ephesus disciples included the need to be water baptized in the name of the Lord as well. (Acts 19:1-6)
First, these 12 hadn't received the Holy Spirit, and didn't even know the Spirit existed. All they were aware of what John's baptism of repentance. So Paul had them baptized in the name of the Lord. But there is NOTHING in the text about baptism being required for salvation. They were Gentiles, and like the Gentiles in Acts 8, they didn't receive the Spirit by water baptism. They received the Spirit by the laying on of hands.

Paul's message to the jailer and his household included the need to be water baptized. (Acts 16:33)
Why do you always insert the word "the need to be" where there is NO such wording. When the jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved, Paul's answer was the gospel: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That's it.

The fact that they WERE baptized doesn't prove that it "is required".

Paul did preach baptism. In addition, he explained what actually occurs in the spiritual realm when people are baptized into Christ. (Romans 6:3-6)
Let's take a peek into what Paul preached, shall we?

1 Cor 15-
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.
6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,
8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Paul begins by reminding the Corinthians what he had preached to them in v.1. In v.2 he tells them they ARE SAVED because they possessed the gospel that he preached.

Then, in v.3 Paul lists what he considered of "first importance". And he ends this segment by saying "this is what we preach, and this is what you believed".

So Paul was acknowledging that they were saved (v.2) because they believed (v.11).

Now, please point out where Paul included water baptism that he preached to the Corinthians.

Mark 1:1-5 makes the point that the gospel includes the need to be water baptized.
1 The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God,
2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way” —
3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’ ”
4 And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Huh? This is about John's baptism, not "Christian baptism". It has no relevance to Christian baptism.

This is Paul's view of John's baptism in Acts 19-
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Pretty clear. John's baptism had nothing to do with salvation. It was about repentance that led to a change in behavior. That does NOT save. And note that even the water baptism Paul administered didn't result in the 11 receiving the Spirit. It was AFTER the baptism that Paul "laid his hands on them" and THEN they received the Spirit.

So none of the verses you quote help you out.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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As a baby, Jesus Christ was born physically as the Son of God but, possibly at the
Jordan River Jesus Christ was born spiritually as the Son of God by water and Spirit....:unsure:
Would that not deny His Spiritual union with the Godhead from eternity past? :unsure:

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow
you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)


The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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Would that not deny His Spiritual union with the Godhead from eternity past? :unsure:

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow
you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God." (Luke 1:35)


The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.
Jesus Christ is the FIRST BORN of many brethren....:unsure:

He is the ONLY begotten of the Father.... that would be His physical birth as a baby... born of a virgin with God as His Father. No other human has ever nor will ever be born of a virgin.

Yet, born again of water and Spirit...... many brethern.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Jesus Christ is the FIRST BORN of many brethren....:unsure:

He is the ONLY begotten of the Father.... that would be His
physical birth as a baby... born of a virgin with God as His Father.
That was not questioned. I questioned whether His baptism made Him the spiritual Son of God, as you suggested.

Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the world.

How could He at any point not have been the Son of God?