Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

"in increasing measure" - 2 Peter 1:8

Well this verse is not regarding losing salvation and even if it was... It is still not clear and specific where the dividing line is.
You cannot deny this.

But what you are denying is that all sins, 100%, were dealt with at the cross.

Once declared "innocent" of all charges, those sins cannot be imputed back to "guilty again" if possible than the person was never really innocent.

 

[VCO]

I was also baptized in an Independent Baptist Church.
. . .

ME TOO! SAVED Instantly IMMERSED (Baptized) in the Spiritual Body of Christ by the HOLY SPIRIT, . . . and later GOT BAPTIZED in WATER.

OH I REMEMBER that NIGHT in VERY COLD WATER. Pastor said the WATER HEATER Out in the Church, so he filled it with the Garden Hose, and told me it will be fine, as all afternoon, at room temperature, should warm the water up. HE WAS MISTAKEN. IT WAS VERY COLD, LOL.

Yes, baptized in a INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCH, both of us had a career MAILMEN JOB, . . . . . . BUT, a Retired Mailman is WAY BETTER that a currently Employed Mailman.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

They were what we call "play acting" trying to act like a christian so they can join the club, but in reality they loved their sin and lived in it.

THEY turned Gods grace to licentious, by denying it with their lack of faith

This is different than a person getting saved, Being filled and sealed with the spirit. then later falling into sin and losing salvation

I see your point.

But imagine how OSAS could be used as an advantage to a pretender in the church. It seems OSAS would be the perfect vehicle to allow pretenders to wreak havoc in the church among genuine OSAS believers who are honestly aiming toward a holy life while the other is using it to "get away" with some sins.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Well this verse is not regarding losing salvation and even if it was... It is still not clear and specific where the dividing line is.
You cannot deny this.

But what you are denying is that all sins, 100%, were dealt with at the cross.

Once declared "innocent" of all charges, those sins cannot be imputed back to "guilty again" if possible than the person was never really innocent.

The forensic thinking is a bit off. Justification in Paul's letters is more like right standing in front of a king rather than a matter of guilt. And that can change depending on purity without innocence being declared. The idea of a court picture was introduced by Augustine and has been the primary motif ever since, but its not the one found in the writings of the Greek fathers or the apologists. One thing it boils down to is defining when someone "believes" that seems to be separating the two of you, as you seem to be placing a much stronger requirement on the word than Judges if I am reading your comments right. In effect, belief itself is a fruit of salvation.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

God has wiped away our sin -- the reaction we have to that ought to be to do what's right, not go on being wicked and certainly not add more and more evil to our lives!

Agreed.

But how would you handle a OSAS brother/sister who might be abusing this grace?

After all, he has not been taught to stop sinning; but to sin less, right?

 

[VCO]

I see your point.

But imagine how OSAS could be used as an advantage to a pretender in the church. It seems OSAS would be the perfect vehicle to allow pretenders to wreak havoc in the church among genuine OSAS believers who are honestly aiming toward a holy life while the other is using it to "get away" with some sins.

I told you once before, WE WANT THEM TO SIT IN OUR PEWS, even if they are PRETEND CHRISTIANS.

WHY? GOD is in the business of CONVERTING pretenders, into REAL BORN AGAIN OSAS CHRISTIANS.

Romans 10:8-9 (HCSB)
8 On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and in your heart. This is the message of faith that we proclaim:
9 If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:10-18 (HCSB)
10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
11 Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame,
12 for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, since the same Lord of all is rich to all who call on Him.
13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
14 But how can they call on Him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: How beautiful are the feet of those who announce the gospel of good things!
16 But all did not obey the gospel. For Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our message?
17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.
18 But I ask, “Did they not hear?” Yes, they did: Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.

 

[posthuman]

But imagine how OSAS could be used as an advantage to a pretender in the church. It seems OSAS would be the perfect vehicle to allow pretenders to wreak havoc in the church among genuine OSAS believers who are honestly aiming toward a holy life while the other is using it to "get away" with some sins.

the fact something can be abused doesn't make it something wrong.

and imagine what legalism is a perfect vehicle for?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see your point.

But imagine how OSAS could be used as an advantage to a pretender in the church.

You mean like this

jude 1:4
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

yeah people have been doing this since the church first started. It does not mean we do as many have done, and do a complete 180, and reject eternal life, and make it conditional life. would you not agree?

It seems OSAS would be the perfect vehicle to allow pretenders to wreak havoc in the church among genuine OSAS believers who are honestly aiming toward a holy life while the other is using it to "get away" with some sins.

ok, So then lets take Gods grace, Add works to it. Make it conditional life, not eternal life. Makes Gods offer of a gift. actually a reward to be given, Because some people may take Gods grace and turn it to licentiousness. And in effect. Make a gospel that is a false gospel. Because we are afraid of what might happen.

That makes no sense, does it to you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the fact something can be abused doesn't make it something wrong.

and imagine what legalism is a perfect vehicle for?

Go out, get drunk, find a woman to keep me company

Wake up. Feel sorry for your sin, Confess it, and beg God to forgive you

A month later. do the same thing, repeat the same sacrament (rinse and repeat)

as long as I am not murdering someone, or raping them, I will be ok, Just confess. it will all be ok.

oh I forgot. Lie about it, Judge others as sinners to make myself feel better, Go around telling everyone how holy and righteous I am. Play church, Pray alot in community, Just make sure people sees my good side, not my bad side!

 

[posthuman]

Agreed.

But how would you handle a OSAS brother/sister who might be abusing this grace?

After all, he has not been taught to stop sinning; but to sin less, right?

i don't know where you get the idea anyone is told to "sin less" rather than not to sin.
let me try to imagine it:

don't want to step on toes, but try and cut down on your rape & murder, could ya? it's making visitors nervous.

____________________________

hmm, no, hardly seems plausible to me. but i guess maybe? lol
anyway not something i've heard taught. i have heard, don't be discouraged when you fall; keep fighting sin - don't give up.
perhaps you are thinking encouragement when someone fails = telling them not to try to succeed? or redefining success?


but what do you think works better:

• stop your gossiping, it's stupid, foolish and destructive! you're dishonoring God and harming others!
• stop your gossiping, Christ came to save the righteous, not to save sinners!
  
  ?

 

[Bbrdrd]

i don't know where you get the idea anyone is told to "sin less" rather than not to sin.
let me try to imagine it:

don't want to step on toes, but try and cut down on your rape & murder, could ya? it's making visitors nervous.

____________________________

hmm, no, hardly seems plausible to me. but i guess maybe? lol
anyway not something i've heard taught. i have heard, don't be discouraged when you fall; keep fighting sin - don't give up.
perhaps you are thinking encouragement when someone fails = telling them not to try to succeed? or redefining success?


but what do you think works better:

• stop your gossiping, it's stupid, foolish and destructive! you're dishonoring God and harming others!
• stop your gossiping, Christ came to save the righteous, not to save sinners!
  
  ?

I prefer the third option: Stop your gossiping, Christ made you righteous so act like it.

 

[star]

Believing in once and for all eternal salvation simply means we do not have to fear "are we doing enough, are our works good enough, have we done enough works, are we holding on tight enough, etc." I believe the thief on the cross was with Christ in paradise after he died. I believe, even with one's last breath, if they accept Jesus and profess with their mouth that He is the Saviour of the world, they are saved.

 

[EleventhHour]

Believing in once and for all eternal salvation simply means we do not have to fear "are we doing enough, are our works good enough, have we done enough works, are we holding on tight enough, etc." I believe the thief on the cross was with Christ in paradise after he died. I believe, even with one's last breath, if they accept Jesus and profess with their mouth that He is the Saviour of the world, they are saved.

Amen and Amen!!!

 

[posthuman]

I prefer the third option: Stop your gossiping, Christ made you righteous so act like it.

amen!

'be unleavened, as you really are'

our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed

 

[Micaiah-imla]

I told you once before, WE WANT THEM TO SIT IN OUR PEWS, even if they are PRETEND CHRISTIANS.

But how does this line up with 1 Corinthians 5:11?

"But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

Romans 10:10-18 (HCSB)
10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.

This scripture in the translation you used (HCSB) seemingly creates two kinds of believers. One who believes with the heart, and one that confesses with the mouth.

In the Authorized Version (AV) it reads this way (not implying superiority, just showing what I see in the translation I use):

"For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

In the AV it speaks of one man doing both actions. Not sure if this was a scripture that influences the teaching of having pretenders among you or not. Just wondering.

 

[posthuman]

I see your point.

But imagine how OSAS could be used as an advantage to a pretender in the church. It seems OSAS would be the perfect vehicle to allow pretenders to wreak havoc in the church among genuine OSAS believers who are honestly aiming toward a holy life while the other is using it to "get away" with some sins.

do you see how that the argument isn't any longer about whether this is the truth or not, but has become 'even if this is true, we shouldn't teach it, because this truth is dangerous in the hands of wicked people' ?

 

[Micaiah-imla]

the fact something can be abused doesn't make it something wrong.

True.

and imagine what legalism is a perfect vehicle for?

Legalism is wrong.

But obedience from the heart is what scripture teaches.

 

[Bbrdrd]

True.



Legalism is wrong.

But obedience from the heart is what scripture teaches.

One of the biggest questions is obedience to what, exactly? Obedience to the written laws? Much of the NT seems to deny this. So what are we to be obedient to? Or better, who? And this is a dividing line because many who profess obedience aren't following the Holy Spirit, and that's where our obedience should be. And what does He confess? Nothing but Christ crucified and resurrected.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

It does not mean we do as many have done, and do a complete 180, and reject eternal life, and make it conditional life. would you not agree?

I agree that the true believer will do whatever is necessary to remain faithful to God.

The only people who can reject anything are those who never accepted it. Those who have accepted something can only discard it.

It is not a matter of changing eternal life into conditional life; it's a matter of true doctrine verses false doctrine. Anyone who finds the pure doctrine in scripture and allows anyone to cause him to stumble in the truth of the Bible will be just as responsible for their actions as the false teacher at the judgment.

Ezekiel 14:
[10] And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeks unto him.

It's a serious issue. And both sides believe they are arguing the truth.

I appreciate your input.

 

[azamzimtoti]

and imagine what legalism is a perfect vehicle for?

Lawyers?