Not By Works

Shamah · Aug 31, 2018

Yeah I think you need to read it again...

Numbers 18:19
All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto YHWH, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it [is] a covenant of salt for ever before YHWH unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

The Covenant stands fast with the Messiah:

Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”

VCO · Aug 31, 2018

Shamah said:

Look at YOU mis-quoting and misinterpreting what HE ACTUALLY SAID. ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS LOOK AT THE SENTENCE AHEAD OF IT AND THE SENTENCE BEHIND IT, TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HE JUST SAID, WAS THE PROMISE TO DAVID. It is NOT the Covenant made with ISRAEL IN THE VERSE mentioned in the verses ahead of that.

Psalm 89:33-35 (NCV)
33 But I will not hold back my love from David, nor will I stop being loyal.
34 I will not break my agreement nor change what I have said.
35 I have promised by my holiness, I will not lie to David.

Psalm 89:33-35 (GWT)
33 But I will not take my mercy away from him or allow my truth to become a lie.
34 I will not dishonor my promise or alter my own agreement.
35 On my holiness I have taken an oath once and for all: I will not lie to David.

dcontroversal · Aug 31, 2018

VCO said:

The tragic truth........there is a severe lack of honesty among'st the people of God...I made a factual statement in another thread how those who push a works based or law keeping salvation always resort to claiming that grace based eternal salvation believers use grace as a license to sin and or live any way we want because we believe in eternal security....a FACTUAL statement and of course I get X's all over it..................blows my mind how many on this site lack honesty, integrity while twisting what we say, embellishing what we say or flat misrepresenting what we say.......

Jewel5712 · Aug 31, 2018

VCO said:

Look at YOU mis-quoting and misinterpreting what HE ACTUALLY SAID. ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS LOOK AT THE SENTENCE AHEAD OF IT AND THE SENTENCE BEHIND IT, TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HE JUST SAID, WAS THE PROMISE TO DAVID. It is NOT the Covenant made with ISRAEL IN THE VERSE mentioned in the verses ahead of that.

Psalm 89:33-35 (NCV)
33 But I will not hold back my love from David, nor will I stop being loyal.
34 I will not break my agreement nor change what I have said.
35 I have promised by my holiness, I will not lie to David.

Psalm 89:33-35 (GWT)
33 But I will not take my mercy away from him or allow my truth to become a lie.
34 I will not dishonor my promise or alter my own agreement.
35 On my holiness I have taken an oath once and for all: I will not lie to David.

As much as i agree with this..what does it all have to do with the OP? Im lost...

Jewel5712 · Aug 31, 2018

@VCO...sorry..wrong thread...

Shamah · Aug 31, 2018

VCO said:

I get how you can see that, but what do you think about this part:

The Covenant stands fast with the Messiah: all BOLDED words are speaking of the Messiah

Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”

"I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth"

who is firstborn AND higher than the kings of the earth?

Revelation 1:5 and from יהושע Messiah, the trustworthy witness, the first-born from the dead, and the ruler of the sovereigns of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,"

" I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven"

Was the Messiah a decendant of Dawid?

Psalms 132:11-12,11 יהוה has sworn in truth to Dawiḏ; He does not turn from it, “Of the fruit of your body I set upon your throne."12 “If your sons guard My covenant And My witnesses that I teach them, Their sons shall sit upon your throne forever.”"

"I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever"

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of YHWH and of His Messiah; and He will reign forever and ever."

Hebrews 1:8-14,8 But to the Son He says, “Your throne, O Elohim, is forever and ever, a sceptre of straightness is the sceptre of Your reign."9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness. Because of this, Elohim, Your Elohim, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” Psa 45:6-7."10 And, “You, Master, did found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of Your hands."11 “They shall perish, but You remain. And they shall all grow old like a garment,"12 and like a mantle You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.” Psa 102:25-27."13 And to which of the messengers did He ever say, “Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet”? Psa 110:1."14 Are they not all serving spirits sent out to attend those who are about to inherit deliverance?"

I could give a ton more verses showing this, each is free to view things the way they choose...

gb9 · Aug 31, 2018

VCO said:

but, this is the only way their " theology " works- ignore context and chronological order, and pay no attention to whom the thing that was said to.

just throw out verses, write in their own opinions , and call it " theology . wow.

Shamah · Aug 31, 2018

Galatians 3:27-29, “For as many of you as were immersed into Messiah have put on Messiah. There is not Yehuḏi nor Greek, there is not slave nor free, there is not male and female, for you are all one in Messiah יהושע. And if you are of Messiah, then you are seed of Aḇraham, and heirs according to promise.”

Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Abraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

Seohce · Aug 31, 2018

gb9 said:

44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn themat the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

10 You, however, know all about my teaching,my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescuedme from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse,deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wisefor salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Shamah · Aug 31, 2018

John/Yahanan 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

gb9 · Aug 31, 2018

Shamah said:

but, Christ was not speaking of the Law of Moses. '

God the Father said of the Son " hear Him ".

the Father did NOT say " hear My words through Him.

Trinity. truth. oneness. lie.

Shamah · Aug 31, 2018

gb9 said:

He spoke the Law of YHWH and gave perfect example of how to walk in it...

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.”

Mat 19:16-17, "And see, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good shall I do to have everlasting life? And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – YHWH. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.”

gb9 said:

The Father EXACTLY said "hear My words through Him"

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

John/Yahanan 7:16-17, “Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority.”

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

gb9 said:

Not sure what you are implying here.

dcontroversal · Aug 31, 2018

Most lawyers and Pharisees fail to understand that Christ was born, lived and died under the law which ratified the New Covenant...his words MUST be interpreted in light of this truth....HE also had many NEW things to say, but they COULD NOT BE SAID until the NEW had been ratified by his blood which CHANGED the way GOD deals with men according to a NEW COVENANT RELATIONSHIP......the very words of PAUL as applied unto true NEW TESTAMENT churches ARE the words that Christ speaks about when he states that he has many things to say, but the disciples were not ready to receive them.....

Shamah · Aug 31, 2018

John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 – poimén)."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

John 16:12-15,12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you."15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”

Revelation 1:1-3,, “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,"2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw."3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

gb9 · Aug 31, 2018

Shamah said:

He spoke the Law of YHWH and gave perfect example of how to walk in it...

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.”

Mat 19:16-17, "And see, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good shall I do to have everlasting life? And He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – YHWH. But if you wish to enter into life, guard the commands.”

The Father EXACTLY said "hear My words through Him"

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

John/Yahanan 7:16-17, “Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority.”

John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”

Not sure what you are implying here.

what I am saying is this- you and the other Hebrew roots/sda push the lie that one has to keep the Law / Sabbath to be saved , as well as having faith in Christ.

denying the Trinity is one of the primary deceptions your group uses, to claim that the N.T. and O.T. are the same. they are not.

Seohce · Aug 31, 2018

1 john 2
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word,love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

revelations 21
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

LIKE ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA, WHO AFTER ŔECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH, LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

WILL THEY BE CONSIGNED TO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR?

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE

MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)

DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;

“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES.

"GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED"

"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR"

Shamah · Aug 31, 2018

gb9 said:

Stero typing as usual.

Yahshua decieds who is saved, He seperates the "sheep" from the "goats" Those that have true faith will go toward Yah and will walk in His path and will.

The trinity debate is not vital to me because Jesus never says belief or disbelief in the trinity has any effect on salvation.

Finally the only reason the terms "OT" and "NT" exist are because Marcion who said the "OT" "God" was mean and angry and the "NT" "God" was kind and nice and overthrew the "OT" "God" ohh and he rejects the brother of the Messiah James and only accepted Paul's writings.

ohh yeah, sheep and goats:

Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

VCO · Aug 31, 2018

Shamah said:

You don't get that His Covenant with ISRAEL is an everlasting Covenant? I am surprised at you, but maybe you do not know that GOD has put the Covenant between God and Israel on HOLD between after the End of the 69 Week of Daniel, and then comes the Church-Age or Times of the Gentiles, and when the Church-Age is OVER at the Calling Out of the Bride (Rapture); then the 70th Week of Daniel Begins.

That chart is pretty accurate as far as I can tell. It is a WEEK of YEARS, the 70th Week begin, until the Church is Complete. It literally is on hold. Every Jew that comes to accept JESUS as their Messiah and Lord, automatically becomes part of the Church during this age. You may find it very interesting, that the JEWS are actively planning to build a Third Temple in the near future. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/third-temple-news.155526/page-24

Genesis 17:7 (HCSB)
7 I will keep My covenant between Me and you, and your future offspring throughout their generations, as an everlasting covenant to be your God and the ⌊God⌋ of your offspring after you.

GOD is not finished with with ISRAEL, and He will not be as long as MORTAL MAN walks the face of this Earth.

Shamah · Aug 31, 2018

VCO said:

Ummmmmm.... What?

So I have been saying on this site for years that the Covenant made with Abraham, Issac, Jacob/ISRAEL is THE SAME ONE ratified by the Messiah... IT;s all over every post of mine on this topic...

Shamah said:

gb9 · Aug 31, 2018

Shamah said:

Stero typing as usual.

Yahshua decieds who is saved, He seperates the "sheep" from the "goats" Those that have true faith will go toward Yah and will walk in His path and will.

The trinity debate is not vital to me because Jesus never says belief or disbelief in the trinity has any effect on salvation.

Finally the only reason the terms "OT" and "NT" exist are because Marcion who said the "OT" "God" was mean and angry and the "NT" "God" was kind and nice and overthrew the "OT" "God" ohh and he rejects the brother of the Messiah James and only accepted Paul's writings.

ohh yeah, sheep and goats:

Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”

ahh, but Luke reports Jesus saying " New Covenant " in the Last Supper.

of course, Luke was a gentile, so i'm sure you will try to spin that.

and, if you were to accept what Luke said as truth, as the early Church fathers did, that would mean you can't blame the separation of the O.T. and N.T. on the catholics

you do know that the " jewish writings" were not added to what we call the Bible until many years later, after the 66 books of the Cannon were gathered .

but, this is how propaganda works- one has to make an enemy, and blame everything on that enemy.

I am not a catholic, and not a fan of theirs, but they did not make up the Trinity, Scripture proves it.

and, as far as the Trinity having nothing to do with salvation by Christ, well, neither does the Sabbath.

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