How can one learn?

[Pilgrimshope]

View attachment 256636


"covenant" isn't in the text.

it just says "new"

as in,


John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

by saying "new" He makes the old obsolete.

and we are not talking about Paul, @Rainrider - we are talking about Christ, God dwelling among His people.

Brother read what being said there in context I’ll even remove that word he’s quoting from Jeremiah 31

“For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, When I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; Because they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord. ( the law of Moses )

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And write them in their hearts: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

( now that sentance makes sense ) In that he saith, A new, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:8-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hes been talking about the old and new covenants the whole time the changing of the covenant word from ot , to new

“For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:12, 18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even from chapter one

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, ( ot )

hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, ( the gospel and nt ) whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭

“For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; ( ot )

how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, ( gospel ) and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”( New Testament )
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:2-

“For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (for they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: ( the giving of Moses law )

but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, ( the gospel Jesus words ) and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, ( Moses word ot law )

much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”( Jesus word nt)
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:18-20, 22-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the whole book is about the changing over of the covenants from old to new

 

[posthuman]

So what? "Covenant" is understood as what is being referred to.

so it isn't in the text.

yes, the immediate context is the covenant - and it's made clear also, the law of that covenant.

but also the general principle is present that when He says "new" it necessarily differentiates what is "old" and makes the old obsolete.

because it is actually stated in the text in abstract, not specific, it applies equally to 'a new commandment' and 'new wineskins' and 'a new creation' and 'newness of life' and so on.

in each of these related things He says, equivalently by the same principle there is an old thing supplanted by the new, and the old is no longer of primary importance, whether it is something transformed or done away with.

this is not only a statement about the covenants, but a statement of universal truth.

 

[posthuman]

so it isn't in the text.

yes, the immediate context is the covenant - and it's made clear also, the law of that covenant.

but also the general principle is present that when He says "new" it necessarily differentiates what is "old" and makes the old obsolete.

because it is actually stated in the text in abstract, not specific, it applies equally to 'a new commandment' and 'new wineskins' and 'a new creation' and 'newness of life' and so on.

in each of these related things He says, equivalently by the same principle there is an old thing supplanted by the new, and the old is no longer of primary importance, whether it is something transformed or done away with.

this is not only a statement about the covenants, but a statement of universal truth.

as a mathematician there is a striking difference between saying "8 is even" and "all integers divisible by 2 are even"

that is the difference here, not just a statement about a specific instance but a statement about all such instances.

 

[evyaniy]

Romans 2

25 For circumcision indeed profits, if you are a doer of the law, but if you are a transgressor of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If therefore the uncircumcised keep the ordinances of the law, won’t his uncircumcision be accounted as circumcision? 27 Won’t those who are physically uncircumcised, but fulfill the law, judge you, who with the letter and circumcision are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from EL(Theos, Elohim, YAH, God).

 

[Dino246]

People create their own Denomination of one by rejecting everything else.

We do not!

 

[Dino246]

[QUOTE="evyaniy, post: 5170145, member: 294024" from EL(Theos, Elohim, YAH, God).[/QUOTE]
‘Elohim’ is a generic term, not a specific name or term for God. It is also used of other divine beings and disembodied spirits.

 

[evyaniy]

funny

 

[Rainrider]

(Friend: I read over your entire post, and truer words have never been more spoken!)
"You say, " I came here to learn more than I think I know."
There's no need, for wisdom, truth and knowledge all come from God, and all you have to do is ask.,
(John 16:13, Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.)
The reasoning of the Holy Spirit is the "reason" no one can answer you, for the very ones who claim to be of God, seek their own glory. For example: People preach salvation without repentance? Come On Now! And, Once Saved, Always Saved? I give the scripture Gen. 3:4; And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: , but do people desire sound doctrine? No, sir. What they desire, is not to glorify God, but rather to exalt themselves. Keep on, Keeping on, my friend! (Always in Christ)

Though you are 100% right in that wisdom comes The Spirit, we are to fellowship, and also learn from one another. Test all things, and seek truth. One can in no way see truth if they sit back and think they they know something, yet never look past their own understanding. I do now that from past and present experience on here, that straight answers are never forth coming. However it does help in some ways.

 

[Rainrider]

kindly, that's not an answer to my question...

and let's not forget that God Himself tore down the veil. pretty important detail.

Oh it is an answer to your question. When I am asked if I think christains should give sacrifices, that,s my answer.
However speaking of unanswered questions. Let take a trip back a bit. You see I have played this game of your's long enough. So let's go back to the start of this whole thing. I do want the answer in ways that you don't even come close to understanding.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now my question is this. Where in this passage does Yeshua say I cam to do away with the Law?
I am not talking about fulfilling the Law, as it is Clear here that the Law and the prophets are tied together. And as anyone with open eyes, and a desire to walk in every word of truth can see. We are being told straight out, the Law will not pass until heaven and earth pass.
If you wouldn't spend so much time seeking to trip me up in my belief, or find falt when it is clear I haven't change anything in what I say, we could stop talking in circles.
As it stands you have only one hope of showing your stand in my eyes. Answer the question placed before you here, do so with out dog and pony show.

 

[Rainrider]

so you would delete all the jots and tittles that have to do with purification and sin and burnt offerings, but keep the jots and tittles that have to do with fellowship offerings?

i'm going to need a revised version of the Torah to keep up with what we edit out of it and what we keep..



or how about this,
i have died, and my life is hid in Christ, and none of the Law applies to a dead man - but if you touch me, you need a red heifer's ashes.

If you look closely, you will see that I have removed nothing. However you wish to remove the full Torah. I am getting so tired of haveing to repeat my self.

 

[Rainrider]

so you would delete all the jots and tittles that have to do with purification and sin and burnt offerings, but keep the jots and tittles that have to do with fellowship offerings?

i'm going to need a revised version of the Torah to keep up with what we edit out of it and what we keep..



or how about this,
i have died, and my life is hid in Christ, and none of the Law applies to a dead man - but if you touch me, you need a red heifer's ashes.

Look I am not here to play games. If you wish to read into my words what ever seems to fit your narrative, then by all means do so. After all you do it with the word, when you pit one passage against another as you do so well.
Now as for the Law not applying to a dead man, your right it doesn't. however so long as we are alive it does. As you must be a live, that doesn't hold water. You see to be dead means you have no heart beat, and know nothing.
I take the word for what it tells us, and seldom will I belittle others. However when a person takes to trying to do that with me, I at some will return the favor.
As it stands your argument must is with the Word and not myself. Petty, and derogatory statements do nothing to help your case. Oh I am sure you find it funny and now are going to say how wrong I am, you were not being petty at all. Yet that to would take some mental gymnastics to get around. So when you can find it in you be real, and answer the question I placed at the start of this, as well in my last post, then we can get back to being cordial.

 

[posthuman]

Oh it is an answer to your question. When I am asked if I think christains should give sacrifices, that,s my answer.
However speaking of unanswered questions. Let take a trip back a bit. You see I have played this game of your's long enough. So let's go back to the start of this whole thing. I do want the answer in ways that you don't even come close to understanding.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now my question is this. Where in this passage does Yeshua say I cam to do away with the Law?
I am not talking about fulfilling the Law, as it is Clear here that the Law and the prophets are tied together. And as anyone with open eyes, and a desire to walk in every word of truth can see. We are being told straight out, the Law will not pass until heaven and earth pass.
If you wouldn't spend so much time seeking to trip me up in my belief, or find falt when it is clear I haven't change anything in what I say, we could stop talking in circles.
As it stands you have only one hope of showing your stand in my eyes. Answer the question placed before you here, do so with out dog and pony show.

i've already answered this.

Romans 7:1-6​

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? ​

For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to [her] husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of [her] husband. So then if, while [her] husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. ​

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. ​

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. ​

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter.​

 

[posthuman]

If you look closely, you will see that I have removed nothing. However you wish to remove the full Torah. I am getting so tired of haveing to repeat my self.

is the only reason it is sin now for a properly ordained, appointed and purified Levite to make a sacrifice of blood on behalf of anyone, according to the statutes given in detail in Leviticus, because there is currently no temple in Jerusalem?

 

[posthuman]

Now as for the Law not applying to a dead man, your right it doesn't. however so long as we are alive it does. As you must be a live, that doesn't hold water.

your argument is with scripture,
not with me.

Romans 6:3​

do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?​

​

Colossians 3:3​

ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.​

​

​

 

[posthuman]

the Law will not pass until heaven and earth pass.

without Christ, sure, every Jew is still under the Law, and therefore cursed by it, absolutely hopeless, condemned and having no salvation.
they have their certificate of divorce.

i would not reccomend seeking the same fate for yourself or for others.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

so it isn't in the text.

yes, the immediate context is the covenant - and it's made clear also, the law of that covenant.

but also the general principle is present that when He says "new" it necessarily differentiates what is "old" and makes the old obsolete.

because it is actually stated in the text in abstract, not specific, it applies equally to 'a new commandment' and 'new wineskins' and 'a new creation' and 'newness of life' and so on.

in each of these related things He says, equivalently by the same principle there is an old thing supplanted by the new, and the old is no longer of primary importance, whether it is something transformed or done away with.

this is not only a statement about the covenants, but a statement of universal truth.

Liked how you explained this

 

[Pilgrimshope]

without Christ, sure, every Jew is still under the Law, and therefore cursed by it, absolutely hopeless, condemned and having no salvation.
they have their certificate of divorce.

i would not reccomend seeking the same fate for yourself or for others.

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To keep Moses law a person has to read the booo of the law of Moses which contains every command and ordinance Moses gave to the Children of Israel in the desert before they entered the land of promise to which thier law is applicable


“And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law. There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.”
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭8:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The condition within the law the blessings and cursings were based upon whether isreel would obey and keep and walk in every single word Moses commanded and wrote in the book of the law. Pertaining to the preisthood of Levi , the order of Aaron the high priest and the words of Moses its mediator ( the one who spoke to god then to the people for god ) and according to animal blood sacrofoces by Moses according to all the words in the law

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats a prophetic pattern for the new covenant according the authority of Jesus , the words of Jesus , the preisthood of Jesus our high priest in heaven , the sacrifice of Jesus and his perfect blood representing perfect life shed for us according to the promises of the gospel his words

The testator of the ot is Moses ( he wrote the first five books of the Bible where the covenant words are made between god , his angel , Moses and the people , and the rest of the ot is based on moses words to the people )

the testator of the New Testament is Jesus who spoke the gospel which was recorded by his apostles who were recorded in the book of acts the first five books of the new testement where the words of the covenant are made by the testator .

the difference is Jesus never made a covenant saying “ you must perfectly obey me and of you ever fall short you must surely die and be cursed “ the Israelites law is filled with curses if they ever disobeyed from losing a hand to an eye to your life on Greusome and public ways even being hanged upon a tree as an executed dead sinner as a curse and warning to all the people in the camp that day ……with a sign above your head saying what you did and a warning of the punishment is you the sinners dead body

“And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭21:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

christ died in a sinners place for all as accepted atonement before God

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:13-14, 19-20, 23-24, 26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Rainrider]

i've already answered this.

Romans 7:1-6​

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? ​

For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to [her] husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of [her] husband. So then if, while [her] husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. ​

Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. ​

For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. ​

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not [in] the oldness of the letter.​

That isn't an answer. You have disregared the fact that Yeshua said THINK NOT.

 

[Rainrider]

is the only reason it is sin now for a properly ordained, appointed and purified Levite to make a sacrifice of blood on behalf of anyone, according to the statutes given in detail in Leviticus, because there is currently no temple in Jerusalem?

And with no Temple there can be no sacrifice. Still waiting on a reply to Mat. 5:17-18

 

[Rainrider]

your argument is with scripture,
not with me.

Romans 6:3​

do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?​

​

Colossians 3:3​

ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.​

​

​

Wrong, as you now live and breath you are still living.