Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
65,585
33,381
113

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
65,585
33,381
113

Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, + 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
1,594
377
83
68
Australia
@Magenta @Cameron143 @Rufus

Is the best you can do to continually cast aspersions on those who disagree with you?

Especially telling when you have to be corrected because you misunderstand what is said in the first place.

C'mon, you are all better than that.
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
1,594
377
83
68
Australia
I suppose the antediluvians were so wicked because they had a nurturing problem, too, heh? Their every inclination and thoughts of their hearts were wicked continually and they filled the earth with violence.

The reason the Israelites "learned evil" that became so ingrained in them was due to their inherently evil hearts! Any child reading the bible can tell you that; for the ancient Israelites were certainly influenced by the pagan nations around them. But they were influenced because that was the inclination of their hearts to begin with. Their rebellious hearts and hostility towards God began at the Exodus and continued throughout all their days. How come they just couldn't exercise their "freewill" to shun evil and sinful influences altogether?
If the Israelites had inherently evil hearts, they had no need to learn evil.

The heart is the place in our soul where we hold that which we value most. Our souls are created by God in His image and likeness. To say our wicked hearts are inherent is to say God created wicked souls.

Good and evil must be learned, neither is inherent. Why do some prefer good and others evil? Who knows? It's a mystery.

They did exercise their free will, they used it to reject God. God did not withhold grace, but they withheld from believing His word.

Actually, the antediluvians were wiped out because their genetic makeup had become non-human except Noah and his family.

As to having a "nurturing problem"? You tell me. I said only God can teach us goodness, so was it God's fault for poor teaching?
 

Slimsumo

Active member
Apr 2, 2024
116
71
28
Hello Slim! Molinism also promotes man's inability, though the Molinist calls it radical depravity
instead of total depravity. Same difference. It seems aimed at mollifying those who cannot control
their knee jerk reactions to the truth of man's condition. It still teaches that very aspect of our being
is affected by the fall and renders us incapable of wanting to be saved. This in lieu of total depravity.
It is God’s persistent beckoning that overcomes our wicked obstinacy.


Molinism offers ROSES: (instead of TULIP)

R Radical Depravity (instead of total depravity)

O Overcoming Grace (instead of irresistible grace)

S Sovereign election (instead of unconditional election)

E Eternal life (instead of perseverance of saints)

S Singular Redemption (instead of limited atonement)
Would that be the same as the teaching of original sin? I have not looked into it much, but I do affirm the doctrine based on Romans 5.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
65,585
33,381
113
Would that be the same as the teaching of original sin? I have not looked into it much, but I do affirm the doctrine based on Romans 5.
I am not sure what you mean about original sin, although some here do deny that Adam's fall from grace affected the human race even though Scripture says the whole universe was affected. And many are those who claim man in his fallen state can choose to believe what he cannot even receive or comprehend while blinded to the truth being under the power and influence of the devil... slaves to sin and lovers of unrighteousness. They essentially have the flesh -within which nothing good exists- bringing forth the good fruit of faith despite Jesus saying it is impossible. It is with the heart that one believes, and man's heart is incurably wicked. To which verse in Romans 5 do you refer? Paul was amazing... and he affirmed man's inability.


Romans 8 verse 7a, Galatians 5 verse 17, John 1 verse 5, John 14 verse 17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.
 

Slimsumo

Active member
Apr 2, 2024
116
71
28
I am not sure what you mean about original sin, although some here do deny that Adam's fall from grace affected the human race even though Scripture says the whole universe was affected. And many are those who claim man in his fallen state can choose to believe what he cannot even receive or comprehend while blinded to the truth being under the power and influence of the devil... slaves to sin and lovers of unrighteousness. They essentially have the flesh -within which nothing good exists- bringing forth the good fruit of faith despite Jesus saying it is impossible. It is with the heart that one believes, and man's heart is incurably wicked. To which verse in Romans 5 do you refer? Paul was amazing... and he affirmed man's inability.


Romans 8 verse 7a, Galatians 5 verse 17, John 1 verse 5, John 14 verse 17 ~ The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. Darkness does not comprehend the Light. The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

If you are a molinist you would then affirm people have libertarian free will, but the way God predestines things is by creating the world in which people freely choose Him and that is how He orchestrates history and redemption. He creates the world in which He knows if He places John in X circumstance He will choose to do Y. Counter-factuals and middle knowledge is the idea, very complicated and not explicitly mentioned in Scripture but it does a good job of explaining the tension between predestination and free will, both of which are clearly taught in the Bible
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,202
1,576
113

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.
it is tiresome that the same proof texts for free will are being used over and over again.

deuteronomy, choose this day whom you will serve. repent, do this, do that.

none of these are proof texts these people think they are. it speaks nothing about human capabilities to do so, we have to go to the other verses to find that, and we do, and as you have quoted, it is not a will that is completely free. it must be set free.

combine these two and you have compatibilist free will. meaning we do make choices freely all the time we are not coerced into it, but we make the choices based on our nature.

its not as complicated as you would think.

people please read this image Magenta posted and refute it if you can.